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Two weeks ago, while in LA, I was asked to meet up with the LTV folks, along with Natalie Bovis-Nelsen (founder of the Liquid Muse) in order to take a look at the new prototype for LTV.

 

After flying in and rushing to the hotel to drop my stuff and change out of stale airplane clothes, I headed out to a nice dinner with Minott, Ashely and Gee, where we discussed several different aspects of the brand, including what improvements should be made to the actual drink and also to marketing. I'd say we devoted at least an hour to what has been said here at the WS as well.

 

While we were eating, we realized that the establishment (Church and State Bistro) had a traditional absinthe service. Unfortunately, they only stocked La Muse Verte :thumbdown: . Either way, we asked the owner if we could pull out some of Minott's product and louche up a glass of the old and a glass of the new, which was happily allowed.

 

When Minott pulled out the new bottle, it was obvious that there were quite a few changes made. Several of the employees even came over to take a look at what was going on. More on the changes in a bit.

 

After dinner, we all headed to the Doheny, where we met up with Natalie so we could see how the new product fared in cocktails compared to the old brand. It seemed to be unanimous that the new version worked better in every aspect.

 

I unfortunately didn't take any pictures at the bar, but Minott, Gee and Ashley were nice enough to send me a bottle about 3/4 full of the new product, so I can take some pics and send out samples to some others here at the WS.

 

So, here are the changes that I noted regarding the product:

 

1) Color is dramatically different. While it is still artificially created, at least it looks natural. That's a big plus. Here it is, pictured in the middle, next to the current LTV and a popular, highly rated brand which shall remain nameless.

DSCN1262.JPG

DSCN1264.JPG

 

2) Louche is dramatically different. They seem to have added quite a bit more anise, which helps to make the louche thicker. When fully louched, it doesn't look much different than any other traditional absinthe.

DSCN1268.JPG

DSCN1273.JPG

 

3) Sugar has apparently been completely removed! While this did cause some of the flavors of the cogeners to come out, it also allowed some bitterness show through and helped to not mask the anise as much as previously. To be honest, the cogener thing is kind of being picky, since most palates wouldn't know what the hell a cogener is, let alone what what tastes like.

 

4) Taste is similar, but somewhat improved from the original. Again, with the removal of the sugar, it has become a more dry spirit. The anise is definitely more pronounced, however the eucalyptus is still the dominant flavor. I'd say it's more balanced now, but still entirely too eucalyptus heavy. I'd like to see a bit more wormwood and/or anise and a lot less eucalyptus though.

 

On top of the above changes, there have been quite a few developments in regards to their marketing practices that should also be noted:

 

1) The website has been completely retooled since last year. Multiple references to controversial subjects that the WS dinged them on have been removed, including removing references to hallucinations and thujone, and also removing associations to some historical figures that probably never drank absinthe.

 

2) At Alan's request, Minott has been very willing to have Paul Nathan correct some of the information on Paul's site. I think he's still open to this in the future as well. Which is good, because there are still a few points that need tweaking over there.

 

3) Minott has graciously provided me the name of the TTB agent who consulted with them on how to communicate thujone levels. Apparently this agent actually recommended that, when the issue comes up, they should state 'LTV contains the maximum amount of thujone allowed by law". I plan to try to talk to this agent to see if we can get him to instead recommend a different syntax that doesn't seem to attract 'thujone shoppers'. Minott, if you're reading this (which I assume you are), can you PM me his contact info?

 

So, here are my final thoughts:

 

Whether or not it was done as 'damage control', or in a sincere effort to improve the product, the fact that LTV went to the lengths they did to change based on our feedback is commendible. I think that, if we can continue to act civil, and provide CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, LTV (and other brands in the future) will continue to be willing to hear us out in order to improve their product. These changes really highlight the influence that the Wormwood Society now has. When the Wormwood Society speaks, people now listen. We aren't just a forum for a bunch of absinthe crazed drunks to talk smack to each other any more. :)

 

Personally, I prefer the flavor of a traditionally flavored, distilled absinthe. That's not going to change. But I do think it's very admirable that they decided to adapt based on feedback such as ours. I think they've made a lot of good changes that everyone will view as improvements. There is still much more work to be done, but this is a good start. I hope it continues.

 

Thanks for listening to us. Everything we've said and worked towards at the WS is in the best interests of the category as a whole. We hope you feel the same.

 

From what I hear, this prototype isn't the final be-all and end-all. I think they are planning even more improvements before issuing the finalized new product. After all of the changes that have already been made, I'm interested to see what other improvements come along.

 

I think there have been several other people who have tried the prototype. Anyone care to comment?

 

 

*** UPDATE ****

 

This project's plug has been pulled. While continuing to work with Minott and the others on suggested changes, it became more and more obvious that there were some ulterior motives. Instead of truly wanting to make dramatic changes to the product, it seems as though they wanted to only make cosmetic changes, and only up to the point that I would relent and edit my original review to classify their product as absinthe. Further, once said cosmetic changes were made, they wanted to do a promotional blast, attaching my name and that of the WS to their promotional materials as a way to increase their reputation and 'sellability'.

 

It appears as though this was all just another marketing push. Make small changes to the product, then spend a bunch more money on making their product seem like a WS and Brian Robinson collaboration project. I was unwilling to risk my own reputation and that of the WS for this product.

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Wow!

 

Ginormous :cheers: to Minott, Gee and Ashley for not only being open to critique, but over and above that being interested in improving their offering. This makes me much more likely to pick up a bottle.

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I swore I'd never drink LTV again but I've been known to eat those words. I'm very interested in the changes and applaud the effort.

 

The changes look promising and I'm proud to be a part of this community.

 

Thanks to all concerned, Cheers!

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This makes me much more likely to pick up a bottle.

Maybe...

I agree: Cheers for trying to make a legitimate absinthe!

As for the predominate eucalyptus flavor, it really threw me off in the original so I'm a bit concerned. I will withhold judgment until I've had a chance to sample the new LTV but all I can think of is Koala bears and the notion that this belongs in the weirdness category with St. George and L'Italienne (Yes, yes, Absomphe, I like L'Italienne but I'm still not sure it's absinthe). No matter, I'm always excited to give a new beverage a sip. :cheers:

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I'm thrilled to hear that so much has been accomplished with the LTV brand. If someone had told the forum six months ago that this is where we'd be, I dare say few would have believed it.

 

While I will echo previous hopes that they will go a little further in revamping their drink, the improvements already achieved seem impressive (I have not yet tried a sample, so I'm relying on Brian's opinions and the photographs included here -- thanks for posting them, Brian).

 

Kudos to Minott and all at LTV, along with the constructive comments of Wormwood Society members that helped inspire the change. Egads, we might all just get along before it's said and done!

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I'm still working on my own blog post re: a meetup with the west-coast marketing rep for LTV which occurred ten days ago, but I'll throw in a quickie 2 cents here.

 

I, too, got a chance to try the reformulation but - long story short - it's still nothing I'd go out of my way to drink.

 

I've more to say, but I'm saving that for a fuller entry when it's not late at night and I'm loopy on fatigue. ;)

 

(And the way said marketing rep winced as I tried - for the third time - the current product and pulled a face like a cat tasting something unpleasant almost made me feel bad for being honest. Almost)

 

I'll post more within a day or so,

 

- Johanna

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I'm kind of impressed. I'll probably end up trying some of the reformulation when it comes out. I hadn't ever planned on trying their current blue-green liqueur, but the removal of the sugar and the adoption of natural looking colors and a more anise forward flavor puts it in line with a few other products currently offered. Definitely not sure about the eucalyptus, but I'll give it a whirl nonetheless.

 

That said, here's my off topic remarks:

 

It's hard to see what the future will be for spirits such as LTV now that there are more and more traditionally distilled absinthes being produced. In my opinion, it doesn't look good. I'm assuming they have a plan for long term success though, which hopefully involves a traditional distilled absinthe offered alongside LTV. They have the capabilities, but do they have the inclination?

 

To Minott and the LTV gang: Let's step the game up a notch! You guys have the resources and wherewithal to be serious competition in the resurgent absinthe market. Right now, perhaps only discerning critics and absintheurs are able to list the drawbacks to the current LTV (and perhaps even the new formula). But what about in the future? With more and more absinthes hitting the shelves, there is greater exposure. With more exposure comes more critique. Nip it in the bud! Start work on a second absinthe, in the way that other distillers offer variety.

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It may look more natural, but it's still an artificial colour, therefore they have learned nothing in this regard...or rather they are simply unwilling to change!

 

Sugar has been removed: Good. One step closer to a real absinthe, but still several steps away.

 

They've added more, but how was the quality of this anise?

 

I've never heard of anyone especially favouring a eucalyptus-dominant absinthe/absinth, so it's hard to see why retaining this characteristic would be considered desirable. Or could the changes be minimal in hopes of retaining their existing customers? I'm glad to hear there is some level of improvement in the balancing issue, but that alone is not enough to win over any traditional absinthe enthusiasts.

 

Overall, this sounds like reluctant baby steps on the path to a much-needed overhaul. "Damage control or a sincere effort to improve the product?" From the look of things, my thought is the former.

 

Minott, I'm sure you're reading this. I can't speak for everyone, but I am not impressed after hearing this report. What is the purpose of such a piddly compromise? If it is sincerely to improve LTV, why settle for a subtle improvement when all feedback (even aside from the reaction of WS/TARN members) points to more drastic changes needed to satisfy consumers? By now, I'm sure you've had top-shelf absinthe and are perfectly aware of what LTV should aim to be, yet I still don't see your product heading in that direction, at least not with any sort of enthusiasm. That is why I believe this is purely a political gesture.

 

But I hope I'm wrong, and that the alterations are substantial (and for the better) when LTV 1.5 launches later this year.

 

I'll be waiting.

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Brian, thank you for doing & sharing this.

 

Taking baby steps is still moving forward.

I don't really see the point of fabricating a "natural" color at all. It would probably be more cost effective in the long term to color naturally and use maceration rather than using artificial coloring. This will not only improve the color & mouthfeel, it will bring out flavors you didn't even know were there. Thus making a better and more traditional product, while still leaving your mark on said product & the industry itself with your choice of natural ingredients and a beautiful bottle.

 

Minott, thank you for being so open to our input here at the Wormwood Society and especially for the changes in your team's marketing. A reasonable man adapts himself to the world, an unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself to no avail.

 

Here's to progress! :cheers:

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Thanks, indeed, for sharing this, Brian. It does seem as though it's at least a step in the right direction.

 

 

this belongs in the weirdness category with St. George and L'Italienne (Yes, yes, Absomphe, I like L'Italienne but I'm still not sure it's absinthe).

 

Damnit, you intransigent old codger! :laugh: L'Italienne's mysterious yellow flower makes it taste perfumey, yes, but in a highly floral way...yes, the anise is not as prominent as it is in many absinthes, but it's certainly quite discernible, as is the fennel, (and obviously the wormwood) and it definitely louches nicely, albeit, admittedly, with a bit of coaxing

 

I understand St. George in the "weirdness" category, particularly because of the basil and tarragon inclusions, but if Stefano's proprietary yellow flower puts L'Italienne in that "weirdness" category, then (despite its bigger louche, creamier mouth feel, and more prominent anise presence), the use of violet, which is very prominent in Meadow of Love, should place it in that category, as well.

 

Nay, nay I say, you fuddy duddy! :heart: :laf:

 

There is plenty of room for some flavor eccentricity amongst absinthes, as long as wormwood, anise, and (arguably) fennel are clearly identifiable in the flavor. I'm sure we'll continue to agree to disagree on this particular point, but I, for one, will probably never tire of the fun in doing so. :cheers:

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I'm sure we'll continue to agree to disagree on this particular point, but I, for one, will probably never tire of the fun in doing so. :cheers:

Agreed. You old fart. ;)

 

I think the sticking point on our difference of opinion is, I believe anise and wormwood should be the predominate flavor not just something to pick out in the background. MoL clearly has the anise upfront. St. Geo is more traditional than L'Italienne or the original LTV (still not having tried the new, improved, the jury is out).

 

I don't consider MoL's violet that unusual. There were several of us sipping on a blanche with violet under tones over a year ago. Yummy stuff!

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To be in the same room with Joe and Absomphe would be fun and enjoyable to watch and listen.

 

I'll just set back and learn from the seasoned gentlemen. *devil grin*

 

I used to have an opinion and I used to have an ego. The Precious took the ego and my opinion is worth exactly the price you pay for it.

 

RRRRRRRRR UUUUUUUU RRRREADY TO RRRRRRUUMMMMBLLLLLE........

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Heck, there's no fight here.

Damnit, you intransigent old codger! :laugh: L'Italienne's mysterious yellow flower makes it taste perfumey, yes, but in a highly floral way...yes, the anise is not as prominent as it is in many absinthes.

You can clearly see Absomphe agrees with me, already. :cheers:

 

 

 

 

 

:laugh:

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St. Geo is more traditional than L'Italienne or the original LTV (still not having tried the new, improved, the jury is out).

 

I don't consider MoL's violet that unusual. There were several of us sipping on a blanche with violet under tones over a year ago. Yummy stuff!

 

I can't agree that St. George is more traditional than L'Italiene simply based on the fact that it has a thicker louche, and bigger mouthfeel. Its flavor profile is almost as close to a salad dressing as it is to an absinthe, and, to my palate, even the anise almost takes a back seat to the basil, tarragon, andstinging nettles.

 

Still, I can accept your placing St. L'Italienne into that same broad "weirdness" category with St. Gorge much more easily than I can LTV. That just seems downright insulting (though that's obviously not your intent :)) to such a beautifully made, delicious beverage, regardless if it adheres strictly enough to your interpretation of the absinthe standard.

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Anyone care to comment?

 

The pleasure would be all mine!

 

So, here are the changes that I noted regarding the product:

 

1) Color is dramatically different. While it is still artificially created, at least it looks natural.

 

2) Louche is dramatically different. When fully louched, it doesn't look much different than any other traditional absinthe.

 

3) Sugar has apparently been completely removed! While this did cause some of the flavors of the cogeners to come out, it also allowed some bitterness show through and helped to not mask the anise as much as previously. To be honest, the cogener thing is kind of being picky, since most palates wouldn't know what the hell a cogener is, let alone what what tastes like.

 

4) Taste is similar, but improved from the original. ...The anise is definitely more pronounced, however the eucalyptus is still the dominant flavor. I'd say it's more balanced now, but still eucalyptus heavy. I'd like to see a bit more wormwood and/or anise and a little less eucalyptus though.

 

OK, so 2 in the "entertainment" categories, and 2 in the categories that IMO really count... "Nose, Palate, Finish". Sounds like if you put these two products next to each other, they would present as if they were LTV, and LTV Reserve.

 

On top of the above changes, there have been quite a few developments in regards to their marketing practices that should also be noted:

 

1) The website has been completely retooled since last year. Multiple references to controversial subjects ...have been removed, including removing references to hallucinations and thujone...

 

2) At Alan's request, Minott has been very willing to have Paul Nathan correct some of the information on Paul's site.

 

3) Minott has graciously provided me the name of the TTB agent who consulted with them on how to communicate thujone levels.

 

Considering all the input from you, Brian, and others here at the WS to try to help, I would say this is the least they could do to help correct what I understand is significant damage to the category, for which they are responsible.

 

 

...so we could see how the new product fared in cocktails compared to the old brand. It seemed to be unanimous that the new version worked better in every aspect.

 

Based on my tasting of LTV last week, It could not possibly be worse.

 

So, here are my final thoughts:

 

Whether or not it was done as 'damage control', or in a sincere effort to improve the product, the fact that LTV went to the lengths they did to change based on our feedback is commendible.

 

I think they've made a lot of good changes that everyone will view as improvements.

 

I would suspect 'damage control' in both the "Product" and "PR" areas. And again, given the amount of damage to the progress of the rebirth of the category, they are very lucky to have help from the likes of you, Brian, and others here at WS.

 

As for improvements, to me they sound minimal. Almost anything would be an improvement. Last week, it was an improvement when I poured two-thirds of the glass I was tasting down the sink.

 

I, too, got a chance to try the reformulation but - long story short - it's still nothing I'd go out of my way to drink.

 

- Johanna

 

That's what it sounds like to me and why I responded here. The initial post just sounded a little too "Rah, Rah, Rah", considering the history and the actual substance of the changes enumerated here. As for, "but wait, there's more!", well... we'll just have to see. I certainly hope this turns out to be something the legitimate absinthe community can embrace, but right now the new LTV just sounds like the old LTV + tax!

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I would say this is the least they could do

Totally agreed.

 

As for improvements, to me they sound minimal. Almost anything would be an improvement.
They are dramatic improvements when we are talking about cosmetic appearances, but yes, regarding flavor, the difference isn't dramatic, aside from the lack of sugar. But regarding cost and effort, the changes that were made were done in contrast to other improvements that were recommended but were discarded as being too expensive for them to undertake.

 

We aren't just a forum for a bunch of absinthe crazed drunks to talk smack to each other any more. :)

 

I was unaware that we ever were.

Hence the smiley face. ;)

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Thanks for the post Brian.

 

We're happy with the direction of the product. It's not perfect. We're still working on color and anise balance but it's definitely an improvement.

 

It will be a little while until we deplete inventories of the current bottles. During that time I'm happy to try to get samples to those who might want to give us further comment.

 

I really do appreciate the feedback we've gotten from the WS on our product and communication.

 

I know we'll never win over everyone but I think we've made progress and are continuing to listen and learn.

 

Thanks.

 

Minott

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I used to have an opinion and I used to have an ego.

 

Now I have excessive flatulence.

 

slow change is the change that lasts, at least to those who live in interesting times.

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Lest anyone misinterpret—or spin—my upcoming comments: I am not a fan of the flavor or aroma of LTV. This is my personal preference, regardless of the category it's presented in. I also don't condone their past marketing practices or business model. I so far have no personal experience of any changes in any of the above, so cannot comment. I do, though have a few things to say about a lack of perspective and unrealistic and unfair expectations.

 

It may look more natural, but it's still an artificial colour, therefore they have learned nothing in this regard...or rather they are simply unwilling to change!

So what? Virtually every whisky on the market uses artificial color, which is not required to be put on the label, did you know that? I'd name names, but I don't want to get sued. Big names. Quality names. Names we all like and respect. So does almost every other non-white spirit out there. Chartreuse is artificially colored. Sports drinks, juices, beef, whole wheat bread, lemonade, orange juice, candy ... most of us are not up in arms about these. It's a fact of the food industry. Foods and drinks are given a color boost to make them more appealing.

 

Only in cases of misleading consumers, such as advertising a "verte" as being colored with herbs when it's not, is this even relevant to absinthe. Clearly, this is not the optimum way to make absinthe, but as has been pointed out many times, artificially colored absinthes were common 100 years ago, and only a minority used harmful colorings.

 

Coloring is an area where we can advise a producer as to what informed consumers will desire and expect from a costly, premium product, but hardly one deserving of demands and vitriol. (pun intended, for the chemistry buffs out there)

 

They've added more, but how was the quality of this anise?

Again, who cares? This isn't about quality, it's about identity. You don't get to enforce quality. You do get to insist that brand owners label and market their products honestly.

 

Traditionalist fanatics (and I include myself in that category) tend to get caught up on top of the line traditional quality standards as though they were the standards of identity. That's not only untrue and unrealistic, it's unfair. There are such things as superior absinthe, good absinthe, mediocre absinthe and inferior absinthe and there always was. A producer has the right to enter the segment he wants to.

 

There will always be a place for mass-market-appeal and value brands. And there should be, to keep the category broad and healthy and to supply folks in lower economic strata. The problem arises when a brand insinuates itself into a value segment that it doesn't merit. This is especially a problem with absinthe—for now—because most of the public has yet to learn what to demand of a premium absinthe, or how to recognize a lesser quality brand.

 

I've never heard of anyone especially favouring a eucalyptus-dominant absinthe/absinth, so it's hard to see why retaining this characteristic would be considered desirable.

So? Don't drink it. An absinthe substitute, Eucalypsinthe, went so far as to replace wormwood with eucalyptus (of course, they appear to have been eucalyptus fetishists and also made Eucalyptreuse and Eucalypmouth). Our friend, Gert Strand, is offering a Eucalyptus Absinthe essence. If the eucalyptus is so dominant as to eclipse the anise and absinthium, then we have a problem.

 

Or could the changes be minimal in hopes of retaining their existing customers? I'm glad to hear there is some level of improvement in the balancing issue, but that alone is not enough to win over any traditional absinthe enthusiasts.

We're not their target market. The reason they're interfacing with us is to learn why we assert that LTV does not have the taste, aroma and characteristics generally attributed to absinthe. They're not really concerned whether the tiny niche absinthe expert segment likes it. They are concerned that we say it isn't absinthe. They're here to learn how to make LTV be absinthe, nothing more.

 

Overall, this sounds like reluctant baby steps on the path to a much-needed overhaul. "Damage control or a sincere effort to improve the product?" From the look of things, my thought is the former.

Um, I don't think those two are mutually exclusive. If you sunk millions into developing a brand and a bunch of internet nerds started giving you shit about it, you'd be cautious too.

 

... I am not impressed after hearing this report. What is the purpose of such a piddly compromise? If it is sincerely to improve LTV, why settle for a subtle improvement when all feedback (even aside from the reaction of WS/TARN members) points to more drastic changes needed to satisfy consumers?

 

By now, I'm sure you've had top-shelf absinthe and are perfectly aware of what LTV should aim to be, yet I still don't see your product heading in that direction, at least not with any sort of enthusiasm. That is why I believe this is purely a political gesture.

Who are you to decide what LTV should aim to be? What compromises have you made? I don't recall Minott or anybody in the LTV team saying anything about aspiring to be a top-shelf absinthe. I do recall hearing him say that all he wanted to do was create a popular brand, not a premium brand.

 

It's not up to you or any of us to make demands as to what quality segment he wants to enter. Well, you and the TARNSmen can arrogate that right to yourselves if you want, but don't expect WS to go along with it. Our job is to make sure that if something is labeled "absinthe" that isn't, people can make informed decisions about it; and also—as in this case—provide leadership and guidance to producers who may have missed the mark.

 

It's stunning how different the attitude is with some other producers who started out on the wrong foot. I've seen high praises heaped on brands that remain absolute dreck, just because a small clique likes the person responsible, and in spite of a lack of improvement.

 

Sincerity is not a substitute for competence. Just wait for the blind tasting results.

 

I personally don't care for LTV, their prior marketing strategies, or really anything about it, but that's irrelevant. I also personally don't give a rat's ass what the motivation behind the changes are.

 

As it is, LTV is—intentionally or unintentionally—misleading many consumers as to how absinthe is supposed to taste, look and smell, and is sending the message that the spectrum of acceptable flavor profile is wider than it ever was, historically.

 

If these changes get LTV closer to actually being an absinthe, good on 'em.

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Very good points, Hiram.

 

I really think the important issue is that LTV is (apparently) changing its product to more-or-less conform to the traditional definition of absinthe...yes, I know there is no legal definition, but I strongly believe that until there is one, we need to encourage manufacturers to get in the ballpark.

 

To my mind, artificial coloring (so long as it's labeled properly) is not a big concern. It's not a point in LTV's favor, but it's not a deal-breaker. Nor is the presence of an odd flavor...there is room in the world of absinthe for outliers that include prominent notes of, say, cinnamon, A. pontica, basil, or eucalyptus. What counts here is leaving out the sugar, getting the color and louche correct, augmenting the anise profile in the flavor, and, of course, jettisoning the thujone hype.

 

The news in this thread is enough that I now look forward to giving LTV Mark II a fair trial. Regardless of what motivated the changes, it's a step in the right direction.

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Pernod isn't a good absinthe, but it qualifies as the real thing, and is definitely at least a couple of notches above LTV.

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a couple notches above?

I don't feel so bad

 

I would feel better if they had a better price (or had a better product) :harhar:

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as comparring LTV to Pernod?

 

yeah the Pernod would be easier to swallow than 'the old LTV'

it would be interesting to try the new prototype comparred to it

 

can't be worse than Hill's...

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No doubt.

 

Back on topic: I'm tired. I'm getting shit on from all directions when it comes to this subject. I think I'll sit back and take a breather. Have fun all.

 

 

 

Toodles. :wave2: :poop:

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