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La Fee gets flamed


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#121 Père Ubu

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 04:42 AM

Money talks & bullshit walks. I smell payoff. Or legal threat.

#122 Brian Robinson

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 04:52 AM

I doubt the former, but would not be surprised with the latter. You wouldn't believe how many times I've been threatened with legal action for my views, commentaries and reviews.

But once they realize that I know my rights as an unaffiliated individual who clearly delineates what is truth and what is opinion, I don't hear back from them ever again. Go figure.
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#123 OMG_Bill

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 04:56 AM

Money has this strange power over people.

It's the golden rule. He who has the money makes the rules.

And then there are the multi faced individuals........awwww fuck it. I can't find my soap box.

Sometimes it isn't so bad living check to check. <shrug>
Some folks may cringe each time I use the term "Booze" regarding these high quality drinks.
I mean no offense. There are bottles of extraordinary booze out there. I've tasted a few. Relax.

#124 Alan Moss

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:08 AM

I'm a bit offended at the way WS is portrayed here.

Nothing wrong with being called "Absinthe Mavens," is there? I'm tempted to put that on my business card.
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#125 Père Ubu

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:32 AM

Sad to see someone loose their creditbility. I never trust car, or car product, reviews, because of the obvious sponsorship issues (TG being a rare exception). In this case an honest and bad review, changes after a 'chat' with the producers.
If he thinks we are tough, try running that by the other forums. they'll skin him.

#126 Jack Griffin

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:45 AM

The following excerpt is a bit more than being described as "mavens." This is the part that bothered me.

"If you look at a forum like that run by the US Wormwood Society, you could believe that George is the Devil incarnate, a betrayer of the true spirit of absinthe by tricking consumers into believing that a mass-produced cipher is the real thing (in the same way that I myself was initially turned off absinthe by my experience with Hill’s and similar Czech “fauxsinthes”). To George these attacks are deliberate campaigns of misinformation by his competitors."

The way this reads reduces WS' credibility by suggesting/stating (a fine line BTW) that the WS takes this stance as competitors, not for a more noble reason. This is untrue, and damaging; skewing the perceptions of those who don't know us.

Clayton, I know you aren't saying it's true, (which it isn't) but it's not particularly a fair, accurate, unbiased, or a responsible way to write. You are presenting George's view, which is simply false. I fear you have been influenced here. I've been a paid feature writer and columnist in 4 magazines over the years, and I never would have presented things in this manner without a counterpoint, to be fair.


Perhaps you can re-write it again! :devil:

#127 Zman (Marc Bernhard)

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:52 AM

Very sad development.

If you don't like anise at all, you're not likely to care for any decent absinthe, as absinthe is an anise flavored drink. It's kind of like asking if there are any good beers that don't taste like hops or malt.----Hiram

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Maker of Pacifique Absinthe and Voyager Single Batch Distilled Gin
Woodinville, WA, USA
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#128 baubel

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:36 AM

I used to know a guy who referred to himself as a guitar maven. It was on his business card too.

The following excerpt is a bit more than being described as "mavens." This is the part that bothered me.

"If you look at a forum like that run by the US Wormwood Society..."


That there, that's a fallacy bomb right there that is. WS isn't like any other forum I've seen, whether the theme is absinthe or kittens that have been to the moon. Also, we maybe based here in the US, but we have a fairly decent amount of members from around the world.

Edited by baubel, 16 June 2011 - 08:37 AM.

A little technological fix to a spiritual problem.


#129 Jack Griffin

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:47 AM

My initial thoughts were that Clayton was a decent guy, trying to do something good, and that may still in fact be the case. What we are seeing may in fact be Clayton trying to be more accurate, and be honorable.
We are more aware of the nuances, and have sensitivities others do not understand, when looking from the outside in. There is a learning curve to be certain. There is also a chance that George is simply very good at putting spin on things, and came off in a convincing way. Hopefully Clayton will better understand us, and the situation after seeing this thread.

I'm a big believer in benefit of the doubt. I'm still not happy about the article and the light we are shown in,
nor am I likely to ever support la Fee even if they DO step up, which is unlikely. Enough chances have existed for honorable behavior. I suspect George is more at fault on this one, that the writer was simply trying to be fair, and has been greatly misinformed and manipulated.

#130 Père Ubu

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:52 AM

...
WS isn't like any other forum I've seen, whether the theme is absinthe or kittens that have been to the moon. Also, we maybe based here in the US, but we have a fairly decent amount of members from around the world.


Word, brother baubel!!

Scott, I have no problem the guy presenting La Fee's views as such, but I think he went well beyond that.

#131 Jack Griffin

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:57 AM

Agreed. That is why I said what I did in my earlier posts. Giving him a chance to re-evaluate without beating him up too much however, is not a bad way to go. It is in fact the gentlemanly thing to do.
How He responds will be telling, and at that point, I'd be more comfortable making what I feel would be a fair and balanced judgment on things. George (edit) I mean Clayton may be the kind of guy who writes about this stuff in the future in an accurate and informative manner. Fair and balanced is, after all, what we are asking of him.

#132 OMG_Bill

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:04 AM

Crawfish.

They turn red when they are cooked.
Some folks may cringe each time I use the term "Booze" regarding these high quality drinks.
I mean no offense. There are bottles of extraordinary booze out there. I've tasted a few. Relax.

#133 Père Ubu

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:35 AM

Highly impressed by Brian's response. Cool dude, no matter what sixela, stroller, boggy and like minded folks say about him. It is very hard to stay cool and factual when being attacked, or being confronted with BS.

#134 OMG_Bill

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:13 AM

I couldn't agree more. :thumbup:
Some folks may cringe each time I use the term "Booze" regarding these high quality drinks.
I mean no offense. There are bottles of extraordinary booze out there. I've tasted a few. Relax.

#135 baubel

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:14 AM

Brian's a professional when it comes to that type of work. I'm perpetually in awe at how he does it.

A little technological fix to a spiritual problem.


#136 Ambear

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:17 AM

Wow. I'm shocked to say the least.

Scott and Brian definitely seem to have this under control though, in a much more gentlemanly way than I'd be able to muster. :euro:
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#137 TheLoucheyMonster!

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:37 AM

To George these attacks are deliberate campaigns of misinformation by his competitors."



No
It is customer feedback and peer review. If Le Fee would treat it that way, he may actually see that WS might actually help his goals.

Edited by TheLoucheyMonster!, 16 June 2011 - 03:28 PM.


#138 Jack Griffin

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:58 PM

Why are you quoting me on this line? It came from the article.
Perhaps this was not your intent, but to someone casually looking, it looks like this is my comment. It's best in these cases to copy and paste the text in quotes without having it be affiliated with a person who did not say it.

:cheers:

#139 baubel

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 01:21 PM

Agreed, I thought Scott wrote that. But I didn't ptfa.

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#140 TheLoucheyMonster!

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 03:19 PM

Sorry Scott,

I was indeed quoting the article, not you. I didn't look long enough at how it appeared on screen. :cheers:


edit
corrected

Edited by TheLoucheyMonster!, 16 June 2011 - 03:29 PM.


#141 Jack Griffin

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 04:00 PM

I had a name error my 2nd to last post as well..edited! I'm workin' too hard today.

#142 Clayton Hartley

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 04:34 PM

I must say my original post was seized upon as much more of an attack on La Fée than it was ever intended to be, and the rewrite seems viewed as much more of an apology for him than it was ever intended to be. In each case I have attempted to present an objective picture aimed at (in as far as anyone reads my blog) a non-specialist audience.

My additional comments about the WS were as a result of what I'd observed since my original post. I'm not suggesting you are dangerous radicals; rather I think you are very passionate and knowledgeable about the subject. But I don't think you guys realise how startling some of your views seem to an outsider (Scott M. recently declared George Rowley to be a "whore"). I'm not defending George, but the vilification is pretty extreme, which was my point: I was trying to paint a picture of the extraordinary dynamics within the absinthe world.

I didn't mean to suggest that WS forum users are all La Fée competitors. George seemed to be under the impression that I, as an independent blogger, have been deliberately fed untruths by his competitors in the hope that I would unwittingly become their mouthpiece. That's what the reference to the "deliberate campaigns of misinformation" is about; it wasn't a reference to the Wormwood Society as such.

Besides, my point is that this is how George views it—I'm obviously not saying that I agree with him.

Likewise, if George defends his use of dye on the grounds that he believes his market requires consistency above all else, then it is useful to report that he said that. It doesn't mean I'm defending it—as I point out, Lucid manages to command 60% of the US market without the need for artificial colour, so clearly it isn't necessary. I also point out that the emphasis on Marie-Claude Delahaye's endorsement of the product is undermined by the fact that she is a co-owner of the brand.

The conclusion of this current article is that

1. La Fée Parisienne is mediocre,
2. the XS products are good but George doesn't seem much interested in bringing them to the world, preferring to focus on
3. Bohemian and NV, which are cynical non-absinthes created to sell to people who don't like absinthe, while allowing them to believe they are drinking it.

And yet you accuse me of writing a "promotional" piece. I confess I'm stumped.

George must be delighted. It turns out he is an avid reader of this forum, even though he never posts. Hi, George!

#143 Brian Robinson

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 04:48 PM

I must say my original post was seized upon as much more of an attack on La Fée than it was ever intended to be, and the rewrite seems viewed as much more of an apology for him than it was ever intended to be.

I think it comes off that way because we read the original. Further, much of what he told you wasn't challenged much. But, in all honesty, I don't see how many people could expect you to be knowledgeable enough about the absinthe industry to be able to directly challenge some of his statements, so we can't really fault you for that.

(Scott M. recently declared George Rowley to be a "whore").

Scott has been known to inadvertently put his foot in his mouth on a fairly regular basis. He's always said that he'll take a step back and watch more and take more care in his actions, but when you've got as much passion as he does, restraint doesn't come easily. I apologize for his incivility, although the attitude of 'anything for a buck' is quite evident in George's actions, so if the shoe fits...

George must be delighted. It turns out he is an avid reader of this forum, even though he never posts. Hi, George!

Yep. We've known for years that he reads the forum. It's a shame that he doesn't feel it's important enough to post his views here.
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#144 Ambear

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:07 PM

I honestly don't feel like we treated the original post as a massive attack on La Fee, just that was refreshing in a seemingly promo-driven wealth of pro-La Fee junk out there, having someone from outside the forum tasted the product and came back with a "meh" was a breath of fresh air. The fact that George decided to get into contact with you only after realizing your article wasn't gently gargling his balls is of no surprise to me. When his own product doesn't speak well enough of him, it seems as though he's become accustomed to having to step in to fill in the gaps instead.

...the attitude of 'anything for a buck' is quite evident in George's actions


Agreed. And the recent wild barrage of press releases tooting his own horn in addition to him seeming "quite bugged by the fact that he doesn't receive more credit for pioneering so much of the reintroduction of absinthe to Europe" shows that he's looking for adequate recognition for all of his passion-driven 'good' deeds as well.

Let's face it, those of us here can see, taste and smell the difference, in addition to not wanting to support his sales methods and dubiously "necessary" BS lines...and we're not going to, regardless of how much explaining he does.

Edited by Ambear, 16 June 2011 - 05:09 PM.

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#145 Joe Legate

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:15 PM

And yet you accuse me of writing a "promotional" piece. I confess I'm stumped.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. :laugh:

You make some fine points, Clayton and it's nice to get a fresh perspective. We are rather passionate and some of us frequently exhibit a knee-jerk mentality. On the other hand, some of are rather passionate and view other absinthe lovers as colleagues, not competitors. We are left scratching our heads when a producer--someone capable of directing impacting the absinthe market--apparently chooses to pursue a path of financial gain by purposefully producing "mediocre" absinthe.

Conversely, it is hardly fair to shoot the messenger. :cheers:

#146 Zman (Marc Bernhard)

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:22 PM

Mediocre? You are truly a gentleman Joe.

If you don't like anise at all, you're not likely to care for any decent absinthe, as absinthe is an anise flavored drink. It's kind of like asking if there are any good beers that don't taste like hops or malt.----Hiram

Marc Bernhard, owner and Master Distiller of Pacific Distillery LLC
Maker of Pacifique Absinthe and Voyager Single Batch Distilled Gin
Woodinville, WA, USA
www.pacificdistillery.com


#147 Jack Griffin

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:36 PM

Yes, Brian makes a point. My whoring remark MAY have been unfair, and I'm sorry if this is the case. I certainly could have chosen a less harsh manner of expressing my feelings. Frankly, I remember the original article talking about how he was targeting a demographic of younger drinkers. These kids drink till they fall over, often doing just shots, shots with fire, huffing, etc... I lost a cousin to drunk driving, and a friend as well. A friend's father was hit by a drunk kid and had a life-changing head injury. I'm a bit sensitive when I see alcohol being marketed with hype to kids who have such little experience and self-control. The original article made this pretty clear to anyone who can read between the lines, hence the strength of my feelings.

Clayton, I also spoke about the need to be fair to you, don't forget. If I seemed harsh in my tone, I'm sorry. My feelings however, were a reaction to what was written. Much of what was written was changed.

I personally felt your first article was more fair and accurate. I've been interviewed on TV, radio, magazines and newspapers on quite a few occasions...(90% of the time without putting my foot in my mouth BTW Brian :) ) I was never given a re-write, nor did I ever feel the need to request one. (With the exception perhaps of the "whore" comment on this thread).

I wish you the best, and only hope that you continue to seek fairness in your future articles.

#148 Joe Legate

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:40 PM

Mediocre? You are truly a gentleman Joe.

:laugh: I was quoting Clayton.

#149 Ambear

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:41 PM

Mediocre? You are truly a gentleman Joe.

:laugh: I was quoting Clayton.


I see...so you must be total scoundrel then! :devil:
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#150 Brian Robinson

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 06:06 PM

(90% of the time without putting my foot in my mouth BTW Brian :) )

I have no doubt that you do quite well when dealing with guitars. :wave2:
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