Jump to content

 

Photo

Thujone Testing and the TTB


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#1 Overland

Overland

    Newcomer

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 19 posts

Posted 07 February 2011 - 02:13 PM

I am beginning to wonder if the GC being used at the TTB lab is caibrated correctly. I've received two rejections in the last 180 days- the first was for Calmus (which is not an ingredient in my recipe)- the second was for too much Thujone, 270PPM to be exact according the the TTB lab results.

This is all very interesting because the same exact formula passed without any issue prior to switching distiller's- (they make you re-submit if you change DSP's)

Needless to say I am having an independent lab verify these results because they seem a little screwy.

I am curious if anyone else on this forum is having, or has had, similar trouble with the TTB. What is the recourse if independent lab results don't match theirs?

Does anyone know if its even possible to get 270PPM without special lab techniques? -

If the lab results are correct - anyone know where I can "Destroy" some 270 PPM Absinthe- (it tastes very good!)

#2 Derrick

Derrick

    Intoxicologist

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,024 posts

Posted 07 February 2011 - 02:22 PM

If the lab results are correct - anyone know where I can "Destroy" some 270 PPM Absinthe- (it tastes very good!)



I'll take it off your hands! :devil:
"Reality is a crutch for people who can't enjoy absinthe."

#3 OMG_Bill

OMG_Bill

    Complete Absinthe Geek

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,172 posts

Posted 07 February 2011 - 03:24 PM

And I'll be glad to help Derrick........of course I'll include a love offering in exchange. :devil:
Some folks may cringe each time I use the term "Booze" regarding these high quality drinks.
I mean no offense. There are bottles of extraordinary booze out there. I've tasted a few. Relax.

#4 Jay

Jay

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,020 posts

Posted 07 February 2011 - 04:18 PM

Oh man, I haven't heard the phrase "love offering" in many years.

But I too am willing to tithe in exchange for some of this relijun :laugh:

#5 Misanthrope

Misanthrope

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 320 posts

Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:24 AM

If you're concerned that the TTBs methodology if flawed or sloppy, you could try sending in another sample of the exact same stuff you sent before but labeled as something different and see if they still get the same results.

I totally understand your frustration. Good laboratory practices dictate that, first and foremost, test methods be validated and results derived therefrom be reproducible. When you get a non-conforming of off-spec result from a test, you are required to re-run the test a minimum of three times using three different technicians to verify the results of the first test. If the three+ subsequent test results match the first one then you're SOL. If they don't then there needs to be an investigation to determine why the results were different.

I am completely ignorant about submitting samples to the TTB for testing. If it's free or if there's a small fee then I would go for it. If it's an expensive and dreadfully laborious process then you would need to evaluate the opportunity costs of re-submitting.

By the way, I may also be persuaded to help with the "destruction" of some off-spec absinthe.
It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. -- Bertrand Russell
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. -- Dr Seuss
I hate mankind, for I think myself one of the best of them, and I know how bad I am. -- Joseph Baretti
Humankind cannot stand very much reality. -- T. S. Eliot

#6 Overland

Overland

    Newcomer

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 19 posts

Posted 08 February 2011 - 12:32 PM

I appreciate all the feedback!

I am sending a sample to a private lab for verification.

Thanks to all of you willing to help me out- I will certainly keep you posted.

#7 Gwydion Stone

Gwydion Stone

    Propriétaire

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,236 posts

Posted 08 February 2011 - 07:01 PM

Marteau samples have been rejected for thujone levels, but nowhere near that amount. Are you using absinthium in your coloring?

The results can vary from one apparatus to another. Even if the formula is the same, batch size, cooking time and temperatures can change.

Maker of Marteau Absinthe
Master Distiller, Gnostalgic Spirits Distillery
www.absinthemarteau.com
Confessions of an Absinthiste


#8 Hedonmonkey

Hedonmonkey

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,671 posts

Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:28 PM

Willing to help if I can. :wave2:

I pledge allegiance to Queen Fragg and her mighty state of Hysteria...     -Calvin

 

"Until you stalk and overrun, you can't devour anyone."    -Hobbes


#9 precenphix

precenphix

    Dreamer / Noise-maker

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,984 posts

Posted 09 February 2011 - 03:46 AM

I'll swallow a bitter pill for ya!
Those with knowledge easily sense the truth of things. Those with egos built up on rumor and fancy, tend to maintain a hard line. - Tatan (Evan Camomile)

#10 Evan Camomile

Evan Camomile

    Junkyard Dog

  • Content Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,632 posts

Posted 14 April 2011 - 07:54 AM

Ah so this is what is stalling the whole thing. I'd be more than happy to help you "destroy" some of the stuff. What are the regulations for content in say an herbal perfume? My mind always comes to the idea of lemonade out of lemons with this sort of thing. I'm sure there are uses for Absinthe other than drinking... very sure. :devil:

Edited by Tatan, 14 April 2011 - 07:55 AM.

American Absintheur
Blog | FB | Twitter


#11 OMG_Bill

OMG_Bill

    Complete Absinthe Geek

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,172 posts

Posted 14 April 2011 - 10:15 AM

When I carry absinthe on airplanes I just label the bottle "facial astringent".

Yes, I'll use it that way. :devil:

Aroma therapy is a good way also.
Some folks may cringe each time I use the term "Booze" regarding these high quality drinks.
I mean no offense. There are bottles of extraordinary booze out there. I've tasted a few. Relax.

#12 precenphix

precenphix

    Dreamer / Noise-maker

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,984 posts

Posted 14 April 2011 - 10:31 AM

It's theraputic, alright. My offer still stands to get rid of that bad batch, Overland! ;)
Those with knowledge easily sense the truth of things. Those with egos built up on rumor and fancy, tend to maintain a hard line. - Tatan (Evan Camomile)

#13 Blue Star

Blue Star

    Newcomer

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 38 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 01:48 PM

So what was the outcome of the private testing? Were the TTB even close?

Imbibing and distilling!

http://quincystreetdistillery.com


#14 m.a.mccullough

m.a.mccullough

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,044 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 02:37 PM

Im always willing to do my part to help. :3872-DrunkBanana:
Absinthe Veritas, Distiller Probitas. These are the things we fight for.

#15 Evan Camomile

Evan Camomile

    Junkyard Dog

  • Content Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,632 posts

Posted 23 October 2011 - 01:09 PM

Private testing of that batch yielded 28ppm. I think maybe someone at the TTB moved a decimal point but either way it didn't pass.

They do have a batch that passed in two different labs but is still awaiting review from the slow, slow, moving TTB.

I believe destruction of the "270ppm" stuff is already complete.

American Absintheur
Blog | FB | Twitter


#16 Overland

Overland

    Newcomer

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 19 posts

Posted 24 October 2011 - 07:42 PM

Good News! Our Formula was finally approved last Monday by the TTB.
I think there was a learning curve in thujone testing the TTB lab was unwilling to admit. I won't bore you with the details- but multiple submissions all had different results- same formula... Each time the TTB lab took their full 90 days - though they like to lead you on like it will happen tomorrow.

Needless to say we had time to perfect things and I think you guys will really enjoy Trinity very soon. Label approval is in process- unless they say our label is somehow too psychedelic- we will be clear to sell by mid November. There will be limited quantities available online as well as several liquor stores and bars in Northern Colorado. Like our facebook page Overland Distillery if you want to be kept in the loop.

#17 ignis

ignis

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 278 posts

Posted 25 October 2011 - 01:34 AM

Looking forward to the reviews
"I just want silence. Jesus, it doesn't mean I don't like you. It just means right now, I like silence more."

#18 TheLoucheyMonster!

TheLoucheyMonster!

    Really Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,659 posts

Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:14 AM

Good News! Our Formula was finally approved last Monday by the TTB.


:cheers:

#19 Père Ubu

Père Ubu

    Veni Vidi Bibit

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,572 posts

Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:19 AM

Congratulations, can't wait to read expert reviews of it.

#20 Ambear

Ambear

    Ermahgerd, Erbsernthe

  • Content Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,349 posts

Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:22 AM

I ain't no expert...but from the few batches I've tasted, it's pretty decent. :cheers:
Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem

Website | Blog | Twitter


#21 Absomphe

Absomphe

    Krinkles the Clown™

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,547 posts

Posted 25 October 2011 - 03:06 PM

Congratulations, can't wait to read expert reviews of it.


Yeah, me too.

I don't know what I'd do without those.

Certainly not trust my own palate, that's for sure. :rolleyes:

Yes, I'm Krinkles the Clown on an absinthe a beer bender.

You got a problem with that?


#22 Père Ubu

Père Ubu

    Veni Vidi Bibit

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,572 posts

Posted 25 October 2011 - 03:30 PM

Hey, I find grapefruits, cayenne, sugarcane, and tangerines in booze, so I ain't trusting m'self. (roquette, grenouille, VC, & Sauvage for those keeping track)

#23 Absomphe

Absomphe

    Krinkles the Clown™

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,547 posts

Posted 25 October 2011 - 05:13 PM

Sounds spot on.

Well, except maybe the cayenne in La Grenouille. ;)

Yes, I'm Krinkles the Clown on an absinthe a beer bender.

You got a problem with that?


#24 Butch Onufrak

Butch Onufrak

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,141 posts

Posted 25 October 2011 - 06:06 PM

Yeah, what Abs said!

#25 ignis

ignis

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 278 posts

Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:20 AM

just to clarify;

I said 'looking forward to the reviews' as it is an american product therefore out of my reach.

I also like to read the reviews on new Absinthe.

I hope this one is a great success, can't have too many great Absinthes in the world.
"I just want silence. Jesus, it doesn't mean I don't like you. It just means right now, I like silence more."

#26 Ron

Ron

    Blind Eye McGee

  • Content Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,128 posts

Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:28 AM

The first batch I tried, the older one which melted down the TTB testing gear, was pretty bad. The second batch I tried, the much more corrected version, was okay. If there's been more batches done since, and more corrections, I'd be willing to bet it'll be just fine, and could make its way into my collection. But I'll also wait for some reviews. Methinks Amber and Evan will have first dibs, and first reviews, so keep your eyes on those two.
Every hour is green hour. -Hedonmonkey

Sometimes bad just gets so bad that it breaks thru to the other side and becomes good. - Phoenix

#27 Absomphe

Absomphe

    Krinkles the Clown™

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,547 posts

Posted 26 October 2011 - 04:41 AM

Yeah, what Abs said!


Phew, I'm sure glad things are back to being my fault again. :yahoo: :laugh:

Yes, I'm Krinkles the Clown on an absinthe a beer bender.

You got a problem with that?


#28 gee13

gee13

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 293 posts

Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:23 AM

Im just curious if there is an apparatus that one can use for private testing of the thujone levels?



#29 Zman (Marc Bernhard)

Zman (Marc Bernhard)

    Really Advanced Member

  • Advisory Board
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,511 posts

Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:47 PM

Not unless you have the $$$$ for a GC/MS contraption and the $$$$ for the testing standards. Keep in mind that thujone levels mean nothing (for the consumer) regarding absinthe.


If you don't like anise at all, you're not likely to care for any decent absinthe, as absinthe is an anise flavored drink. It's kind of like asking if there are any good beers that don't taste like hops or malt.----Hiram

Marc Bernhard, owner and Master Distiller of Pacific Distillery LLC
Maker of Pacifique Absinthe and Voyager Single Batch Distilled Gin
Woodinville, WA, USA
www.pacificdistillery.com


#30 gee13

gee13

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 293 posts

Posted 04 July 2013 - 09:33 PM

Thanks Marc thats what I thought about the $$ but was just wondering if there was, being new to this Im trying to wrap my head around what you say about thujone levels not meaning anything to the consumer though. Why is there so much debate around levels then? Be it legal or otherwise. .  Yes Ive read extensive articles about the subject and am aware that the production camp uses this in marketing and inversely  with the authorities.   Surely the amount of thujone in absinthe is of interest to the consumer drinking it .




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

Copyright © 2014 The Wormwood Society Absinthe Association