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#1 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 04:25 PM

Hello to everyone at the Wormwood Society. I am Minott Wessinger, the owner and importer of Le Tourment Vert.

First off, let me say how much I appreciate you accepting me as a member of the WS. Contrary to what you might believe, I am a frequent reader of the WS forums and reviews. While sometimes painful, I am very appreciative of your comments about Le Tourment Vert. You are all more knowledgeable than I am about absinthe and I have benefitted greatly from your input.

My goal for Le Tourment Vert was always pretty modest. I wanted to produce a good quality authentic absinthe that could help re-establish the absinthe segment successfully on a long term basis in the US and beyond. I have always believed it would take a variety of good brands, each doing their part to bring lasting success to the segment.

My goal for Le Tourment Vert was to be a great mixer in cocktails. Given the importance of mixology and cocktailing to the spirits industry, I thought it was important that at least one absinthe be specifically designed for cocktail mixology - not just as a rinse or dash, but in full measure.

With this in mind the distiller Bruno Dellanoy and I made three critical decisions. One, we limited the proof at 100. Two, we reduced the levels of anise. And three, we added to the color for visual appeal. While I think we have succeeded in making a mixable absinthe, I believe it has come at a price in perceived quality and legitimacy.

Having read your forums and discussing the issue with many experts including Bruno and members of the Wormwood Society, I think the decisions concerning anise level and color were misguided.

As a result I am here to tell you now that we are altering the product in our next production. We are increasing the anise levels and we are changing the color to be a more natural absinthe hue.

We still have inventory in our system that would be expensive to destroy so after selling through that you will begin to see the revised Le Tourment Vert. I don't expect you to believe it until you see it. Nor do I expect you to embrace it just based on these changes. I do believe, however, that the new product will fall well within your generally agreed upon parameters for absinthe. And I hope you'll give it a try in some of the wonderful cocktails that mixologists across the country have created for us.

That's it for now. In future posts I would like to talk to you about Tales of the Cocktail as well as new cocktail recipes that any absinthe fan might enjoy. Thank you again for your input. It is always welcome.

All the best, Minott.

#2 Brian Robinson

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 04:52 PM

I sincerely hope that this whole thing can turn the corner. I like to see that you've been so open to discussing your brand with several of us here at the WS. I'm even happier to see that it seems like you're interested in actually improving the recipe to some degree.

I think once that is done, the biggest concern will be what Ben mentioned: misinformation. Salesmen at BevMo, your regional Sales Reps, articles, etc. are replete with lots of things that have upset many in the absinthe world, both consumer and producer.

As I mentioned before, the worst thing that could happen would be if your brand turns into the new Hills. I think that, if these things you mentioned are implemented, you'll be taking a significant step in the right direction. I hope to be one of the first to have a bottle of the new recipe arrive at my doorstep so I can see it for myself!
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#3 Joe Legate

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 05:02 PM

As they say, the proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the product and the marketing.

I sincerely hope we see a change in the marketing ploy as well as the product. I wonder how much of a positive force you could be for the absinthe community with real absinthe and an equal dedication to legitimate absinthe marketing. It would be a tremendous boon to absinthe education if Absinthe Saul was struck by the light.

#4 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 05:08 PM

I sincerely hope that this whole thing can turn the corner. I like to see that you've been so open to discussing your brand with several of us here at the WS. I'm even happier to see that it seems like you're interested in actually improving the recipe to some degree.

I think once that is done, the biggest concern will be what Ben mentioned: misinformation. Salesmen at BevMo, your regional Sales Reps, articles, etc. are replete with lots of things that have upset many in the absinthe world, both consumer and producer.

As I mentioned before, the worst thing that could happen would be if your brand turns into the new Hills. I think that, if these things you mentioned are implemented, you'll be taking a significant step in the right direction. I hope to be one of the first to have a bottle of the new recipe arrive at my doorstep so I can see it for myself!


I agree completely. We will keep a close eye on messaging. Any rest assured you at the WS will be the first to receive samples of the new recipe. Tourment will NOT be Hills.

#5 Retrogarde

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 05:12 PM

Isn't the phrase is "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting"? This is especially true in the case of LTV as we pretty much all agree the packaging is clever and appealing, but that's not the true test of an absinthe. I am very curious about the idea of improving the recipe to make it more traditional. But does your comment about changing the color imply there will still be artificial colors used?

But to your point Joe the possibility of having LTV's impressive marketing campaign working for the betterment of absinthe education in general is a truly wonderful thought.
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#6 leopold

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 05:17 PM

I'm confused by your mention of your "distiller". Is LTV a distilled spirit, or a compounded spirit? I must confess I've never had LTV.

If it is distilled, where is the distillery?

#7 Ditch

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 05:26 PM

I'm actually anxious to try your new recipe. Any idea how soon it may be released for distribution?
You will be keeping the look of the bottle, aren't you? :cheerz:

#8 Trid

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 05:29 PM

I must admit that I find the bottle of LTV to be among the most attractive of them all. I also confess that I'm a bit of a bottle geek anyway :) I've tasted the current offering and, well, I'm with most others. I'm pretty excited to see what the "new and improved" has to offer...for both the contents, *and* another nifty bottle.

:cheers:
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#9 scuto

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 05:38 PM

I echo the above sentiments, and just wanted to say that 50% alcohol (100 proof) is most certainly a legitimate level for a traditional absinthe. Since it's on the lower end of the spectrum, the herbal oils will come out of suspension sooner when cold water is added, thus needing less water, as compared to a higher proof absinthe, but this is not a problem. Depends on the producer's intent, I'd think.

(Any corrections/additions by others are welcome!)
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#10 Absinthe Ben

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 06:01 PM

Minott, while I stand by my comments in your introduction thread, and I am still very skeptical about your new product, I must commend you for taking some action to improve the current formula. How large an improvement it will be remains to be seen, but this is certainly a step in the right direction.

What other information can you give us about this? Estimated release, essences or dried herbs, if you are going to go use a traditional selection of herbs in the colouring step, etc would give us more confidence in your product.

Granted it is not too far off, I will give you the courtesy of holding off on publishing a review until the new formula is released. I cannot overlook the quality of the current product, however, so I will include brief notes on the former product along with the evaluation of the improved formula.
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#11 Joe Legate

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 06:07 PM

Isn't the phrase is "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting"?

:blush: As slow as my brain is, my fingers are sometimes slower and my eyes need proof-reading glasses.

I'm open-minded and delighted by the prospects but skeptical considering the vast array of misinformation that has poured out of the LTV machine over the last year. The very recent NYT article being a case in point. I'll be delighted if I'm wrong but there are fences to mend. I'll keep a wary eye and hope for the best.

50% alcohol (100 proof) is most certainly a legitimate level for a traditional absinthe.

Way lower end of the spectrum. F.Guy is lower. Anything else? I should think 68% is the norm, despite what the Times thinks.

#12 Absomphe

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 06:54 PM

62% works just fine, as well.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. ;)

I believe some of the early Tarragonas were 60%, and certainly highly respectable absinthes

Lower than that, however, and something is definitely lost in the translation.

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#13 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:33 PM

As they say, the proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the product and the marketing.

I sincerely hope we see a change in the marketing ploy as well as the product. I wonder how much of a positive force you could be for the absinthe community with real absinthe and an equal dedication to legitimate absinthe marketing. It would be a tremendous boon to absinthe education if Absinthe Saul was struck by the light.


Hi Joe -
I would like to think our marketing could benefit the segment. Are there particular things you would like to see us pursue and/or avoid? If you want we could talk sometime by phone or in person. I think clear & objective retailer education is one of the essential priorities. I believe we can help with that.

#14 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:37 PM

Isn't the phrase is "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting"? This is especially true in the case of LTV as we pretty much all agree the packaging is clever and appealing, but that's not the true test of an absinthe. I am very curious about the idea of improving the recipe to make it more traditional. But does your comment about changing the color imply there will still be artificial colors used?

But to your point Joe the possibility of having LTV's impressive marketing campaign working for the betterment of absinthe education in general is a truly wonderful thought.


Retrogarde - The anise will be slightly higher to improve flavor and louche. I would like the color to be 100% natural but am still working on it. How important do you feel 100% natural is. Do you think there is any room for color additive? Thanks.
Minott

#15 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:39 PM

I'm confused by your mention of your "distiller". Is LTV a distilled spirit, or a compounded spirit? I must confess I've never had LTV.

If it is distilled, where is the distillery?


Leopold - It is distilled at Vinet Ege near Cognac France.

#16 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:41 PM

I'm actually anxious to try your new recipe. Any idea how soon it may be released for distribution?
You will be keeping the look of the bottle, aren't you? :cheerz:


Ditch -
The bottle will remain the same. We like it a lot. I'm hoping we are through current inventory with new formula in market by July/August. Thanks.
Minott

#17 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:43 PM

I must admit that I find the bottle of LTV to be among the most attractive of them all. I also confess that I'm a bit of a bottle geek anyway :) I've tasted the current offering and, well, I'm with most others. I'm pretty excited to see what the "new and improved" has to offer...for both the contents, *and* another nifty bottle.

:cheers:


Trid -

We appreciate the comment on the bottle. Hopefully you'll feel the same way about the liquid. Thanks.
Minott

#18 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:45 PM

I echo the above sentiments, and just wanted to say that 50% alcohol (100 proof) is most certainly a legitimate level for a traditional absinthe. Since it's on the lower end of the spectrum, the herbal oils will come out of suspension sooner when cold water is added, thus needing less water, as compared to a higher proof absinthe, but this is not a problem. Depends on the producer's intent, I'd think.

(Any corrections/additions by others are welcome!)


Scuto-
Our initial trials with higher anise wee fantastic and you're right, just a small addition of anise improved the louche tremendously. Thanks.
Minott

#19 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:47 PM

Minott, while I stand by my comments in your introduction thread, and I am still very skeptical about your new product, I must commend you for taking some action to improve the current formula. How large an improvement it will be remains to be seen, but this is certainly a step in the right direction.

What other information can you give us about this? Estimated release, essences or dried herbs, if you are going to go use a traditional selection of herbs in the colouring step, etc would give us more confidence in your product.

Granted it is not too far off, I will give you the courtesy of holding off on publishing a review until the new formula is released. I cannot overlook the quality of the current product, however, so I will include brief notes on the former product along with the evaluation of the improved formula.


Ben - I don't fault your skepticism. Can I wait to give you details until the new formula is complete - hopefully in July/August. I may have prototypes to share prior to that. Thanks.
Minott

#20 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:49 PM

Isn't the phrase is "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting"?

:blush: As slow as my brain is, my fingers are sometimes slower and my eyes need proof-reading glasses.

I'm open-minded and delighted by the prospects but skeptical considering the vast array of misinformation that has poured out of the LTV machine over the last year. The very recent NYT article being a case in point. I'll be delighted if I'm wrong but there are fences to mend. I'll keep a wary eye and hope for the best.

50% alcohol (100 proof) is most certainly a legitimate level for a traditional absinthe.

Way lower end of the spectrum. F.Guy is lower. Anything else? I should think 68% is the norm, despite what the Times thinks.


Joe - The proof is in the pudding. I agree. Just so I'm clear you think 10 Proof 50%abv is acceptable, correct? Thanks.
Minott

#21 LeRoy

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:52 PM

I hope the new recipe is a success! It's good to see you are trying to improve the product.

After tasting the original, it would be hard to buy a bottle to try, but I would be willing to give it a fair review if given the chance.

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#22 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:52 PM

62% works just fine, as well.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. ;)

I believe some of the early Tarragonas were 60%, and certainly highly respectable absinthes

Lower than that, however, and something is definitely lost in the translation.


Absomphe - 100 Proof is ok, right? One of the issues we find is that certain retailers have expressed concern about carrying spirits over 100Proof. For example TGIF has a liability policy that prevents them carrying over 100 Proof I believe. Thanks. Minott

#23 minott

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:53 PM

I hope the new recipe is a success! It's good to see you are trying to improve the product.

After tasting the original, it would be hard to buy a bottle to try, but I would be willing to give it a fair review if given the chance.


LeRoy - I look forward to your review when it's complete! Thanks.
Minott

#24 pt447

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 08:01 PM

62% works just fine, as well.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. ;)

I believe some of the early Tarragonas were 60%, and certainly highly respectable absinthes

Lower than that, however, and something is definitely lost in the translation.


As good as Obsello is, lower ABV does impact the overall quality and experience!
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#25 Ron

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 11:16 PM

While I think we have succeeded in making a mixable absinthe, I believe it has come at a price in perceived quality and legitimacy.


Perceived?

Here's one problem, as I see it. I understand a little about putting an idea together and then having people, A LOT of people, not like it. But here's where you were presented a fork in the road. At that point, you could have changed the product in order to combat the "perception" of poor quality, as many other producers choose to do, or you could have tried to combat the quality issue by redefining quality through deceptive, or at very best, misleading marketing. And this is where you scored Epic Fail, imho.

I can't underscore how fabulous it is that you appear keen to get feedback and then adjust your product. Were this to be a genuine offer, it speaks volumes about your commitment to your product, and absinthe in general. We all can't help but win. But should you not be honest in your intent, then that also speaks volumes.

I get antsy when I hear things like "we are changing the color to be a more natural absinthe hue." I'm pretty sure that means the amounts of color additives will be adjusted to achieve a more natural appearance. The problem with that, as you know from reading these forums, is that color additives do not make absinthe. I know the spammers like to point out that Pernod's new formula uses color additives, but if you check the reviews here, the new Pernod formula scores pretty poorly. It's also a matter of some disdain, when put against the backdrop of it's historic legacy. So associating your product with nu-Pernod isn't the best way to get your message of authenticity out.

The planned increase in anise levels for your new formula is a winner, and here's why I think so: Absinthe is an anise flavored drink, balanced with the wormwood and fennel. So to market a product with little or no anise flavor, you're then telling people, "this is what absinthe tastes like." So when an authentic absinthe appears with an anise flavor, folks might be inclined to think, "what the hell is that? it tastes NOTHING like real absinthes like LTV."

See where I'm going with this? Your previous incarnation of LTV has set a standard, and unfortunately, not one that should have ever been set.

So I think in addition to the new formulation, there is a DIRE need for you to address some of the previous damage done by the LTV marketing, and not just the contents of the bottle. I would love to see you put something on the label like, "this new formulation is closer to an authentic absinthe than our previous offering." Which, in a sly and savvy marketing conscious subgroup, will definitely admit that the previous recipe was less like an authentic absinthe. I realize that's going to be a hard pill to swallow, and not likely one that you will. But that's something that, personally, I think would go a long way into restoring any bit of "quality" to your brand name amongst people who know about absinthe.

Prost.
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#26 pierreverte

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 12:43 AM

...Having read your forums and discussing the issue with many experts including Bruno and members of the Wormwood Society, I think the decisions concerning anise level and color were misguided.

As a result I am here to tell you now that we are altering the product in our next production. We are increasing the anise levels and we are changing the color to be a more natural absinthe hue.

We still have inventory in our system that would be expensive to destroy so after selling through that you will begin to see the revised Le Tourment Vert...



so what do you tell all the barmen (who made special signature cocktails), liquor stores, restaurants, celebrities, airlines, etc. that have supported, promoted, used and claim to have liked your original formula?
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#27 Alan Moss

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 02:14 AM

In other news, Hill's Absinth has tinkered with its recipe and changed its packaging. Actually a re-reading of the Hill's discussion is quite illuminating right now.

I welcomed Tom then and I found him fairly genuine, concerned about his family image, and endearingly mystified at our scepticism. I'm afraid I can't say that about LTV.

The LTV recipe consists of

1. A product recipe, which may or may not be changed significantly. Tinkering with the colour and the anise level won't satisfy members here; bigger changes will send an "interesting" message to their customers.

2. Good packaging (although the bottle and box do appear to pick up some dust and dirt in those outlets with a slow rate-of-sale). I guess these won't be changed.

3. Very aggressive marketing which, in my view, is the worst issue. Frankly I see very little difference between LTV and some of the worst Czech products in this respect. With some of the Czech products, the distillers could claim they knew nothing about the internet marketing of their brands, but in this case, the brand owner can have no such excuse.

LTV has only stopped spamming the mixology blogs because they got caught. Spamming continues elsewhere, e.g. the LTV Wikipedia page.

Ben wrote recently:

Wormwood Society members were very dismissive of absinthes with artificial coloring and/or added sugar. Only 1 of 55 members listed either La Fée Parisienne or Pernod Absinthe as a favourite; not a single member listed Grande Absente or Le Tourment Vert as a favourite brand. Even MySpace drinkers, who are largely more “casual” drinkers often less aware of the quality standard, were only marginally tolerant towards these brands. Le Tourment Vert, Grande Absente, Pernod and La Fée absinthe are the offenders, and it shows.


and

The future of absinthe for decades to come is being determined right now. What we decide to do-or not do-could be the difference between having readily-available quality absinthe at our fingertips, or wormwood-flavoured vodka at select bars a decade from now.

Will you allow the misconceptions and faux absinthe products to continue to erode the reputation of absinthe, or do what‘s within your power to improve it?

The decision rests with you.


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#28 seeker of truth

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 03:10 AM

This is especially true when it comes to Tourmented Films. You have a great opportuinity to dispel the myths and propaganda about absinthe for the betterment of mankind and the industry, instead of exploiting them solely for profit. We just don't want to see the market flooded with imitation absinthe products that propagate misinformation amongst the masses and add to the confusion of quality of genuine and traditionally produced absinthes. The "dishwater" look of a louched glass of absinthe is not only part of the whole mystique it's very much appriciated by absinthe enthusiasts and is much more appealing than use of artificial coloring. I think you will find here, a lot of constructive criticism.
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#29 Brian Robinson

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 03:18 AM

This part of the Wikipedia page seriously pisses me off.

Pernod, one of the first and most traditional absinthes, first distilled in 1805, also uses coloring.

as well as the maximum amount of thujone allowed by the U.S. Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau

That makes it sound like Pernod has always been artificially colored, and uses it as an excuse as to why the LTV is colored. Ths is the same misinformation that one of the LTV sales reps was peddling on Twitter. I don't even need to mention the thujone thing.
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#30 Alan Moss

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 03:31 AM

And there is not much consistency between the LTV Facebook page:

Today's absinthe emerges as versatile and stylized as its forebears" (so old absinthes were as versatile as we thought)

"Le Tourment Vert, under the stewardship of Bruno Delannoy and Distillerie Vinet Ege, is a traditional French absinthe

(oh, it is traditional now after all)

and LTV's comment in the NYT blog:-

Perhaps most important, the traditional absinthe formulas often mixed poorly in cocktails beyond small dashes and doses.

Our conclusion was that truly traditional absinthes would have limited commercial appeal in the modern era. A lot has changed in the last 100 years.


So what is it?
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