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So when your hypothetical frat boys want to get drunk tonight, do you think they'll bother with ordering online, or visit the local spirits shop and buy a bottle of absinthe right from the shelf? Given the money they save on international shipping, they'll be able to get a bottle of Kübler and Lucid.

 

I doubt either, considering the price of Lucid vs the total price of Yukon Jack + pot.

 

Maybe you missed it because you were concentrating too hard, but I think the hypothetical frat boys are hypothetically interested in drinking "absinthe". I say this on account of Yukon Jack + pot not being green fairy-like.

 

Anyway, this sure has been fun. :thumbdown:

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I just like it when someone sticks to a story.

The people I respect are the ones who stick to the Truth.

This applies to the beginning of that thread, where a quote of Ted's from 2000 is juxtaposed with his current comments about thujone, and an attempt is made to draw sinister conclusions from his "sudden" (that word is repeated often) change of opinion after the intervening seven years of continued study and the availability of a lot of new data.

 

There's no sense in admiring somebody who sticks to their story when new information should be informing and changing their understanding.

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This thread reminds me of my current favorite saying, which I have been trying to find out who said it first for reference purposes - "Saying something over and over doesn't make it true. Unless, of course, you are saying you are repetitive and boring." I would like to attach this to my signature if you know where to give credit. ;)

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Know what I love about this thread?

It makes me want to get back to what I really love to do.

Socializing with my good friends, and at the end of the day, drinking my favourite absinthe.

 

Picture us all in a bar that serves absinthe of every kind.

 

"Hey, barkeep! Gimme one o' them Bairnsfathers! Sluuurp! :puke:

 

Okay enough of that. Now let me try the PF 1901. Ahhhhhhhhh. Now That's some of the finest!

 

Oh, the conversations we could have.

The camaraderie we could enjoy.

Someday.

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Oh, the conversations we could have.

The camaraderie we could enjoy.

Someday.

 

Honestly, that sounds wonderful.

 

Although, I'd keep drinking my Reality...

Edited by studiofox

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Oh, the conversations we could have.

The camaraderie we could enjoy.

Someday.

 

Honestly, that sounds wonderful.

 

Although, I'd keep drinking my Reality...

 

You gotta be kidding. Reality is not even absinthe. Just poorly rectified alcohol with herbs filtered through it. Yuck.

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Yes, by personal preference, Reality is my Wild Turkey of sippin' absinthes.

 

My tendencies are for a more solid and slightly more bitter drink. I started on the usual path, then went through the amers, bitters, etc. I noticed my tendencies were for the more bitter (you should taste the wormwood beer I brew...whoo doggy). The largest problem I found with the more bitter absinthes was that they lacked any fashion of anise...something I liked as well. Then I stumbled upon Reality. It meets pretty much everything I asked for.

 

Does this mean that something is better/worse because of my preference? No. They all have their fine points and I wouldn't turn down a glass of 1901, etc. It'd simply be based upon what I want when and for that I keep a lot of different stuff on hand, in terms of absinthe.

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I guess that begs to answer the question: When you are drinking Reality, is it because you want a good absinthe, or do you want a bitter? Good absinthes have never been terribly bitter (except maybe the wonderful bottle of Wormwood Blanche I have), so maybe it isn't absinthe you crave, but a bitter drink that also contains anise and such.

 

For example, I LOVE bitter things. Milk chocolate is out. I go for as dark as possible. There's a gourmet store near my place that sells 97%. I'm all over it. I drink Bitter Kas, schwepps bitter, cynar, campari, etc etc.

 

But I would never say that I drink absinthe because I love all things bitter. I drink absinthe for the mintiness of a good wormwood profile, the sweetness of the anise, and the vegetal flavors of the fennel, among other things.

 

I'm not knocking your preference for Reality. To each their own. I'm just trying to explain the differences between liking well crafted absinthe, and liking other bitter drinks.

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When you are drinking Reality, is it because you want a good absinthe, or do you want a bitter?

 

In short, I want a slightly more bitter absinthe and not a complete bitter. But that changes based on my mood at the moment. An amer is great when I don't want to deal with anise just like when I get the hankerin' for an oil mix--Parisian hits the spot. This really falls into the realm of subjectivity: If pressed, I'd say Reality is a good absinthe, but I know that doesn't necessarily hold true for someone ranking it on your guys' rating system. But then, on the other hand, it's making (yes, I know the filtration deal is hotly contested) follows the "core ingredients" of absinthe...yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

 

I don't want to start a debate about whether or not Reality == absinthe || Reality != absinthe (sorry the computer nerd got out) because I know that's been well hashed over here.

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Very true. But that, in a sense, could mean that you don't technically care for traditional absinthe. Which is more than fine.

 

Have you ever tried Mata Hari? What are your thoughts? I for one wouldn't call it absinthe, but I think it works well in several cocktails as a bittering agent.

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That depends on which "study" you look at and whose credentials respect, I suppose. Anarchic science is awesome ain't it?

I asked this on your blog but I don't think I got an answer. Exactly what studies support "the other side" and can they hold up to scrutiny (or even being read in full without being quote-mined)?

 

On a side, I posted a quick note on Dr Arnold's numbers for those that haven't actually looked into them.

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An amer is great when I don't want to deal with anise
Then what you mean is a "Bohemian style", not amer or bitter or even necessarily hořky labeled absinthe. With the majority of absinthes this designation is added to the label purely to comply to the law addressing thujone content, not anise content. There is no law that addresses anise content, as far as I know. But if the implication is that there should be, I'd agree that that would be a good idea. I dare say an amer absinthe could very possibly taste sweeter and have more anise than a non-amer labeled absinthe. A descriptive for minimal anise would be a positive development.
just like when I get the hankerin' for an oil mix--Parisian hits the spot.
Now you're just talking crazy-talk. Nobody gets a hankerin' for an oil mix. Some will endure an oil mix. Tolerate an oil mix. Hope that an oil mix will get them through times of no distilled absinthe. Some will believe that that's what absinthe is and accept it. No one will hanker for it. Not qua oil mix. No one who has tasted even a mediocre distilled absinthe will have a hankerin' for an oil mix. This just goes beyond the realm of credibility.
This really falls into the realm of subjectivity: If pressed, I'd say Reality is a good absinthe, but I know that doesn't necessarily hold true for someone ranking it on your guys' rating system.
Drop the "e" and we might be able to negotiate this one. Otherwise, no, Reality is not a good absinthe, but if you want to say it go ahead. I'll just have to add the qualifier that it's probably as good as filterated absinth can be.

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But that, in a sense, could mean that you don't technically care for traditional absinthe.

 

Not necessarily. I care for a "traditional absinthe" more than I care for a "bohemian style", but then there's the variations throughout that hold my interest a bit more. With so much out there, varying recipes, etc. I just can't firmly declare a flavour profile winner.

 

In short, I don't know what I "like" but I certainly know what I don't "like".

 

As for Mata Hari, no, I've never tried it. I object to it based on the name. Other than that excuse, it's just an arbitrary exclusion.

 

I asked this on your blog but I don't think I got an answer. Exactly what studies support "the other side" and can they hold up to scrutiny (or even being read in full without being quote-mined)?

 

Sorry Ari, you got lost in the shuffle there.

 

My arguments are more philosophical in nature than firmly rooted in matching "study for study". Not to go off on a tangent but up until recently ol' Stephen Hawking had the theories on black holes, etc. semi-nailed. Good stuff says the space folks and they build off of his work. Then (and I'm not sure of the exact date, twas recent though) Hawking comes out with "Nope. It's actually like this" and lots of science went down the tubes.

 

My problems with analyzing old bottles to "decode their contents" falls exactly along those lines. What bottles, from where, when? You can't test them all. Nailing it down to a few different bottles from popular and/or legit companies is fine for me for specifics, but it doesn't necessarily satisfy me for the complete picture--if that makes sense. Same goes for studying the affects of thujone. Oxy pointed out a good one recently that there's not exactly a whole lot of absinthe based alcoholics running around to study...yet. Until then, the results from set studies now are fine, but could very well be invalidated at a later date. I dunno..., I see that I've gone into semi-rant mode so I'll voluntarily cut myself off.

 

Then what you mean is a "Bohemian style", not amer or bitter or even necessarily hořky labeled absinthe...

 

Not really, since I meant amer. Had I meant "Bohemian style" I would have said "when I have a hankerin' for no anise but extra minty goodness, I'd go with Bohemian Style". Granted, I could be completely and utterly wrong, but I base this off of the amers I've had. All of which have had a noticeably less anise flavour to the "non-amers" I've had.

 

Concerning oil mixes: Why not? But, then again, I'm prone to having hankerins for Ricky's too. Give the ol' buds a ride for their life.

 

Drop the "e" and we might be able to negotiate this one.

 

I wasn't offerin' to negotiate, but I am trying to avoid running this whole thread into the "absinthe vs absinth" quagmire.

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My arguments are more philosophical in nature than firmly rooted in matching "study for study". ...

Welcome to the wonderful world of science. Of course when dealing with the non-bleeding-edge sciences it is often a set of stepping stones.

 

Beyond that I think many people come at this the wrong way. Many take the old studies as some sort of reasonably solid evidence and want the non-thujone crowd to prove them wrong. When in fact we should start from the beginning. Is there any real reason to think we should care one bit about thujone? The best I can think of is Arnold's preliminary numbers, once those had been shown inaccurate, what is there to stand on?

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My problems with analyzing old bottles to "decode their contents" falls exactly along those lines. What bottles, from where, when? You can't test them all. Nailing it down to a few different bottles from popular and/or legit companies is fine for me for specifics, but it doesn't necessarily satisfy me for the complete picture--if that makes sense.

It doesn't make sense to me. The principle issue is that people have made the blanket claim that preban absinthe had 260mg/L thujone and have used that figure to bash modern absinthe as being "not the real thing," "a pale imitation," and other such things. It's not a claim that works given what we know now from analysis and reproduction of the period's methods. It is certainly possible that some absinthes of the time had a good deal greater thujone content than the ones that have been analyzed, although I don't see it as terribly likely. One reason is that I've read (and I'm not asserting this is absolutely true because I can't recall where I saw it) that, if distilled, there really is only so much thujone that can make it into the distillate and that you're not likely to get more than 45 or 50 mg/L thujone. Another reason is that, although we can only find so much preban absinthe to analyze, there's a wealth of absinthe literature from the time period, and there's no indication that thujone content was used in the marketing of absinthe. So there wouldn't have been any reason to add anything to absinthe to boost thujone. But even if there were brands with thujone at the often-quoted 260mg/L level, we don't see that in the reputable brands, the ones that were well-regarded then and now. Different batches of the same absinthe tend to have varying levels of thujone but it's absurd to think that you'd have to test every bottle to know that the claims of super-high thujone levels aren't true. If an absinthe tends to come in at 5 - 15 mg/L then it's not going to jump from or to over 200mg/L without some major changes in production.

 

Granted, I could be completely and utterly wrong, but I base this off of the amers I've had. All of which have had a noticeably less anise flavour to the "non-amers" I've had.

Have you ever had Lemercier Amer? It's almost pure anise flavour, with a kick of nasty, pencil-shaving bitterness from wormwood oil added to it. As distilled absinthe goes, an amer could be a wormwood bomb or an anise bomb; distillation methods have much to do with it, not just proportion of ingredients. Sometimes absinthes with a whole lot of wormwood flavour don't have enough thujone to be labeled amers, like L'Artisanale and Wormwood Blanche.

 

Good absinthes have never been terribly bitter (except maybe the wonderful bottle of Wormwood Blanche I have)...

I don't find it terribly bitter. I'd say it's moderately bitter, and much less so than Lemercier Amer.

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Have you ever had Lemercier Amer? It's almost pure anise flavour, with a kick of nasty, pencil-shaving bitterness from wormwood oil added to it.

 

Too bad I have a soft spot for Lemercier. Although the Amer is too much anise for me.

 

I don't find it terribly bitter. I'd say it's moderately bitter, and much less so than Lemercier Amer.

Terribly was probably the wrong word there. It's quite bitter, but not in a bad way. It's good, well distilled, high quality wormwood bitter.

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I have a soft spot for Lemercier, too. The initial taste of a glass of it brings back a lot of great memories. However, I find that by the end of the glass I am no longer distracted by nostalgia and can taste the pencil shavings and can't finish the glass.

 

You're right about WB. I think it highlights perfectly how great distilled wormwood should taste. Even with an almost overbearing load of wormwood its bitterness is pleasant and not distracting. The first time I had it I didn't notice the bitterness at all. Very stark contrast with Angelique.

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there's a wealth of absinthe literature from the time period, and there's no indication that thujone content was used in the marketing of absinthe.

Which brings up another issue. The only thujone marketing I ever remember is right near the ban when at least one company tried to market a "thujone free" absinthe. Because in pre-ban times thujone was considered a poison and it's effects on an absinthe drinker were claimed to be nothing (pro-absinthe lobby) to insane madeness (anti-absinthe lobby), however I don't remember anything that I've read which plays up thujone effects as desirable and something that should be a recreational drug. That all seems to come from after the ban, thanks to the misunderstanding of a couple articles and heavy marketing. Which is of course what we are argueing against, not valid science or well supported statements but marketing and the unwillingness of some to change their strategy to match modern understanding.

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the results from set studies now are fine, but could very well be invalidated at a later date. I dunno...,
This is the very nature of science. It progresses by small fits and jerks or great leaps and bounds, but it progresses. Science can not make absolute claims that won't be invalidated at a later date. That's just not how it works. It is about making predictive statements and testing their validity. Building models that contribute to a broader knowledge and ability to predict outcomes. It is like traveling down a dark road in hopes of finding the light, sometimes you reach a dead-end and are forced to back-track, but hopefully the experience may contribute to better interpretations and decisions in the future. You have to be able to take risks and make mistakes to forge ahead in any worthy venture. Invalidation of a set of results or even an entire scientific theory does not invalidate the efforts put forth or the individuals who make those efforts. Still, disproven results are disproven results.
Had I meant "Bohemian style" I would have said "when I have a hankerin' for no anise but extra minty goodness, I'd go with Bohemian Style".
What the fuck are you talking about? I mean, I mean, WTF, I can't make heads or tails of such a ludicrous statement. "Extra minty goodness"? As a descriptive for Bohemian style? If you mean that the rare and infrequently experienced goodness found in Bohemian style absinth might occasionally be attributed to a flavor reminiscent of mint, maybe there's something here to discuss further. Otherwise, you need to elucidate your meaning for my feeble understanding.
Concerning oil mixes: Why not?
This is a rhetorical question, right?
But, then again, I'm prone to having hankerins for Ricky's too. Give the ol' buds a ride for their life.
Do you mean the class of cocktails called Ricky? I assume not, but then I don't have a handle on your reference. Google results are multifarious.
I wasn't offerin' to negotiate
Good. Let's not have any compromises. So, in that spirit, so to speak, and just to keep things out in the open, are you being compensated in any way for the Century absinth advertisement that appears on your blog site? Seems to be a common denominator on the sites of the thujone defenders presently.

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It would well be that studiofox has a high tolerance to bitterness, and simply doesn't taste it.

 

 

On analysis, GC/MS at one time was a new technology. It hasn't been for a few years now. It's now a standard technique whose accuracy has been proven again and again across lots of disciplines and thousands upon thousands of uses. Widely taught. Totally accepted by the scientific community.

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the results from set studies now are fine, but could very well be invalidated at a later date. I dunno...,
This is the very nature of science.

 

Or marketing propaganda...don't believe me, just ask Dr. O. :twitchsmile:

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What the fuck are you talking about? I mean, I mean, WTF, I can't make heads or tails of such a ludicrous statement. "Extra minty goodness"? As a descriptive for Bohemian style? If you mean that the rare and infrequently experienced goodness found in Bohemian style absinth might occasionally be attributed to a flavor reminiscent of mint, maybe there's something here to discuss further. Otherwise, you need to elucidate your meaning for my feeble understanding.

 

Sorry for the confusion. Let me try to explain: (for Peridot) I've had Lemercier (a while back) and I recall the wormwoody bitterness to it far more than the anise (but like I said, it's been a while and I've downed a heap of wormwood bitterness since then, so I may be tainted). Looking back I do remember the anise but not as heavily as the wormwood (I should probably hit it again for good measure). Aside from that the "extra minty goodness" reference was to that good ol' fashioned, homespun "La Fee Bohemian" (which, imo, is crazy mint flavour).

 

Concerning oil mixes: Why not?
So you'd never drink an oil mix by choice based on a hankerin?

 

 

Do you mean the class of cocktails called Ricky? I assume not, but then I don't have a handle on your reference.

 

Again, sorry for the confusion. I meant the much sought after Richard's Wild Irish Rose.

 

 

are you being compensated in any way for the Century absinth advertisement that appears on your blog site? Seems to be a common denominator on the sites of the thujone defenders presently.

 

I am not. I tried their stuff, liked it, and decided "why not link?" As you'll note, the link isn't an affiliate link, in fact, it's a banner pretty much stolen from inside their site with just a flat out link. I'm not prone to linking to absinthes that aren't sold via eAbsinthe, which I am compensated for (ie. an affiliate--to answer a question from Alan...) but since Century is not sold by them, I was freed from that little obligation of mine.

Edited by studiofox

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So you'd never drink an oil mix by choice based on a hankerin?

If I went to someone's house and they had some oil mix I hadn't had or hadn't had in a long time I'd say, "let me start off with that just to see how it is." I cannot think of a single oil mix I would ever have a hankering for. The flavours are completely wrong, especially the wormwood, which is always atrocious if detectable at all.

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