I have a Swiss friend who lives in the region where absinthe was created who is a sommerliere. She told me that I was correct that the flaming thing ruins the subtle qualities of a good absinthe, but that the ritual is quite old, and was lost for many years...that it is not a new invention/idea. She said the proper way is best, as we all seem to think, but the flaming biz WAS done back in the day as well.
Any thoughts?
Full Version: Flaming Sugar Cube Controversy
tell her to show you proof...
QUOTE (pierreverte @ Jan 30 2010, 07:35 AM) 
tell her to show you proof...
I told her that if she has evidence to present it. I also likened to to shaking up a fine Bordeaux and plopping in ice cubes.
So far I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that the concept of burning sugar with absinthe is any older than the 1990s.
Exactly. Plenty of the Eastern European producers, who promote the flame ritual SAY that it's been done for years, but there is no proof to substantiate that. It's an attempt by them to try to substantiate their existence by creating a false tradition.
They've even gone so far as to post faked paintings on the internet as proof, but they have all been proven as false.
They've even gone so far as to post faked paintings on the internet as proof, but they have all been proven as false.
Regardless...absinthe is complex enough without fire.
She's been misled. There is literally no current evidence that shows this was ever done before 1998.
But, but... they showed it in Moulin Rouge, and that was set in 1899- surely that's proof, innit?
QUOTE (Gwydion Stone @ Jan 30 2010, 01:56 PM)
She's been misled. There is literally no current evidence that shows this was ever done before 1998.
I've given up trying to enlighten my misled friends.....
Don't give up......get them from another direction. Sometimes the little darlin's can't process that much info all at once. Use baby bites. Tease them into being curious. When a desire is created......whoop out the Lucid and Kubler. *grin*
Two things I've learned from arguing with people about absinthe.
1) Don't disagree with them when they're drunk because that's when they are never wrong.
2) Use logic.
3) Make sure they know that almost everyone gets duped at first and it's nothing to be ashamed of. That has actually made a huge difference for me; people who just a moment ago couldn't let go are suddenly much more receptive.
1) Don't disagree with them when they're drunk because that's when they are never wrong.
2) Use logic.
3) Make sure they know that almost everyone gets duped at first and it's nothing to be ashamed of. That has actually made a huge difference for me; people who just a moment ago couldn't let go are suddenly much more receptive.
QUOTE (Nonmouse @ Jan 30 2010, 11:10 AM)
But, but... they showed it in Moulin Rouge, and that was set in 1899
Of course, wasn't it obvious from the carefully chosen musical score?
OK guys...here you go. My friend Emmanuelle has no reason to lie to me. Whether this was an isolated case or not, her late grandfather who would be 101 if alive today made absinthe bootleg in Switzerland after it was banned...He and his friends often did the flaming sugar cube thing. This is what he told his Grand daughter, my friend Emmanuel, who also has no agenda in this. You can flame me if you so choose,
in lieu of the sugar cube, but all I'm doing is reporting what she told me, and I believe her. It is not a practice I would pursue, and she does agree it ruins the absinthe, but she is firmly convinced her Grandfather told her the truth, and she stills lives today in that region of Switzerland where absinthe was created. I would wonder why when confronted with direct family memories from someone who made absinthe in that region, why people would not believe it...that to me, seems like an agenda.
I'm on your side here about the right way to drink it. Don't shoot the messenger.
best, Scott
in lieu of the sugar cube, but all I'm doing is reporting what she told me, and I believe her. It is not a practice I would pursue, and she does agree it ruins the absinthe, but she is firmly convinced her Grandfather told her the truth, and she stills lives today in that region of Switzerland where absinthe was created. I would wonder why when confronted with direct family memories from someone who made absinthe in that region, why people would not believe it...that to me, seems like an agenda.
I'm on your side here about the right way to drink it. Don't shoot the messenger.
best, Scott
QUOTE (sbmac @ Jan 30 2010, 09:20 PM)
I would wonder why when confronted with direct family memories from someone who made absinthe in that region, why people would not believe it...that to me, seems like an agenda.
It's not an agenda; it's a burden of proof issue regarding a subject that has been debated for years now. Some sort of written account or painting or photo from the time period would be proof, but hearsay, regardless of the source or the source's reputation, is not. The fact is no proof has ever emerged that it ever happened.
and GOD! would we ever love some REAL proof that absinthe was EVER set on fire!!
Just some sort of (visual or published )proof?!!
And after that, we can all bask in the warmth of the eastern European version(or her grandfather's version in Switzerland) of absinth(e)...
Fuck the messanger, give us PROOF, if not, fuck off (no offence intended)!
Just some sort of (visual or published )proof?!!
And after that, we can all bask in the warmth of the eastern European version(or her grandfather's version in Switzerland) of absinth(e)...
Fuck the messanger, give us PROOF, if not, fuck off (no offence intended)!
QUOTE (pierreverte @ Jan 30 2010, 11:13 PM)
and GOD! would we ever love some REAL proof that absinthe was EVER set on fire!!
Just some sort of (visual or published )proof?!!
And after that, we can all bask in the warmth of the eastern European version(or her grandfather's version in Switzerland) of absinth(e)...
Fuck the messanger, give us PROOF, if not, fuck off!
Just some sort of (visual or published )proof?!!
And after that, we can all bask in the warmth of the eastern European version(or her grandfather's version in Switzerland) of absinth(e)...
Fuck the messanger, give us PROOF, if not, fuck off!
Hey Moron, Come over here and say that to me. I've been very very supportive to the people and vendors on this site, and have been nothing but respectful to everyone but you. Read my post you idiot.
I said I was on your side. Jerks like you should be banned for your abusive behavior.
QUOTE (sbmac @ Jan 30 2010, 08:20 PM)
she is firmly convinced her Grandfather told her the truth, and she stills lives today in that region of Switzerland where absinthe was created.
I'm on your side here about the right way to drink it. Don't shoot the messenger.
I'm on your side here about the right way to drink it. Don't shoot the messenger.
If he would be 101 now, there's reason to suspect that Pop's memory isn't as dead-on as she would like to imagine. Maybe it was just a little mis-communication on both their parts. The fact remains, there is no evidence (other than your friend's hearsay) of absinthe burning prior to the late 1990s. It's not a matter of shooting the messenger. You're only reporting what you've been told. The unanswered question remains: where is any historical evidence?
We have tons of history, bottles of pre-ban, advertising, literature and news reports. But no fire. Until someone comes up with a smoking
QUOTE
I've been very very supportive to the people and vendors on this site, and have been nothing but respectful to everyone but you. Read my post you idiot.
I said I was on your side.
I said I was on your side.
Well said and agreed.
yeah, what do I know?
I'm on your side if you want to know the truth...after 10 years of dealing with the same sort of thing, it gets a bit tiring...
I'm on your side if you want to know the truth...after 10 years of dealing with the same sort of thing, it gets a bit tiring...
Of course it does but WS is all about education.
Every semester, we start all over.
Every semester, we start all over.
QUOTE (Joe Legate @ Jan 30 2010, 10:22 PM)
If he would be 101 now, there's reason to suspect that Pop's memory isn't as dead-on as she would like to imagine.
If he would be 101 now, then he wouldn't have been bootlegging until decades after absinthe's heyday was over, so even if he and his friends were flaming it, it wouldn't be terribly historically significant.
It would change our perception of when the phenomenon began and it might bring up other interesting questions, but the real controversy is the idea of flaming taking place during the Belle Époque. That's the key to czechsinth vendors' claims of flaming being an historically authentic preparation method.
QUOTE (Joe Legate @ Jan 30 2010, 11:22 PM)
We have tons of history, bottles of pre-ban, advertising, literature and news reports. But no fire. Until someone comes up with a smoking gun glass, there is no proof.
Thanks Joe, I do understand the need for REAL proof. I WAS asked to pass along what I had heard.
It seems proof of the existence of abusive morons is easier to come by here! YOU Sir, are a gentleman.
QUOTE (peridot @ Jan 30 2010, 11:29 PM)
It would change our perception of when the phenomenon began and it might bring up other interesting questions, but the real controversy is the idea of flaming taking place during the Belle Époque. That's the key to czechsinth vendors' claims of flaming being an historically authentic preparation method.
Hey my friend, thanks for the clarity on history. I'm still learning here!
QUOTE (pierreverte @ Jan 30 2010, 11:27 PM)
yeah, what do I know?
I'm on your side if you want to know the truth...after 10 years of dealing with the same sort of thing, it gets a bit tiring...
I'm on your side if you want to know the truth...after 10 years of dealing with the same sort of thing, it gets a bit tiring...
I'm not questioning whether or not you're right....simply your bad judgement in picking a fight with a scrapper like me who meant no harm and didn't do anything wrong. You owe me an apology. I am a damned good friend. Still willing to be amigos here...I didn't mean to hit such a raw nerve.
Tiring is fine, but you don't need to act like a douche about it, Peter.
I've not doubt that some people, in small circles, at some point, flamed their absinthe. I doubt no one ever thought of it. But saying that it might have happened isn't the same as saying it's a tradition. I still don't know if it's true that he even did it. There's no way to know. But as mentioend previously, there is no written or visual documentation of this practice ever being employed prior to the 1990's.
I'm sure someone during those times diluted their wine with sheep's milk. But does that mean it was a normal practice? No.
Just a quick note, personal threats and tough guy attitudes won't get you anywhere on this forum. It won't be tolerated. On either side. Peter's attitude isn't necessary, but neither is the 'say it to my face' type of comment. Let's clean it up, shall we?
I've not doubt that some people, in small circles, at some point, flamed their absinthe. I doubt no one ever thought of it. But saying that it might have happened isn't the same as saying it's a tradition. I still don't know if it's true that he even did it. There's no way to know. But as mentioend previously, there is no written or visual documentation of this practice ever being employed prior to the 1990's.
I'm sure someone during those times diluted their wine with sheep's milk. But does that mean it was a normal practice? No.
Just a quick note, personal threats and tough guy attitudes won't get you anywhere on this forum. It won't be tolerated. On either side. Peter's attitude isn't necessary, but neither is the 'say it to my face' type of comment. Let's clean it up, shall we?
QUOTE (Brian Robinson @ Jan 31 2010, 12:34 AM)
... personal threats and tough guy attitudes won't get you anywhere on this forum. It won't be tolerated. On either side. Peter's attitude isn't necessary, but neither is the 'say it to my face' type of comment. Let's clean it up, shall we?
Agreed. There's enough of that other places.
yeah, but you know I LOVE being considered a 'douche' in this world of real douches...
I'm not questioning whether or not you're right....simply your bad judgement in picking a fight with a scrapper like me who meant no harm and didn't do anything wrong. You owe me an apology. I am a damned good friend. Still willing to be amigos here...I didn't mean to hit such a raw nerve.
Apology offered...I truly hope you are really interested in ABSINTHE (in its historical form) because it (the concept of) is something simply spectacular that sprays out into many directions and demands alot of attention...
QUOTE (sbmac @ Jan 31 2010, 05:33 AM)
QUOTE (pierreverte @ Jan 30 2010, 11:27 PM)
yeah, what do I know?
I'm on your side if you want to know the truth...after 10 years of dealing with the same sort of thing, it gets a bit tiring...
I'm on your side if you want to know the truth...after 10 years of dealing with the same sort of thing, it gets a bit tiring...
I'm not questioning whether or not you're right....simply your bad judgement in picking a fight with a scrapper like me who meant no harm and didn't do anything wrong. You owe me an apology. I am a damned good friend. Still willing to be amigos here...I didn't mean to hit such a raw nerve.
Apology offered...I truly hope you are really interested in ABSINTHE (in its historical form) because it (the concept of) is something simply spectacular that sprays out into many directions and demands alot of attention...
QUOTE (pierreverte @ Jan 30 2010, 09:53 PM)
yeah, but you know I LOVE being considered a 'douche' in this world of real douches...
One of us after all?
He's a super douche, super douche, he's super douchy! 
#944... My first favorite car!
#944... My first favorite car!
QUOTE (techdiver @ Jan 30 2010, 11:47 PM)
QUOTE (Brian Robinson @ Jan 31 2010, 12:34 AM)
... personal threats and tough guy attitudes won't get you anywhere on this forum. It won't be tolerated. On either side. Peter's attitude isn't necessary, but neither is the 'say it to my face' type of comment. Let's clean it up, shall we?
Agreed. There's enough of that other places.
The "say it to my face" was a poetic (admittedly not subtle) reminder that it's easy to hide in a forum and t be rude and abusive when you're hiding behind an avatar. If you read my above reply to this member, I DID offer my friendship to him. We've all been a**holes from time to time on a bad day including me. You guys have all been great, and were it not for you, I would not be sitting here sipping a fine Pernot while typing! (sans flames of course). I never implied it was ritual, merely that someone who lives in that region who I know and trust had a grandfather who did it, albeit WELL AFTER belle epoque, but certainly in the early half of the 1900s. I'm sure people did all kinds of dumb things...again, I was not trying to validate a stupid modern practice with false claims.
QUOTE (pierreverte @ Jan 30 2010, 11:53 PM)
Apology offered...I truly hope you are really interested in ABSINTHE (in its historical form) because it (the concept of) is something simply spectacular that sprays out into many directions and demands alot of attention...
See? This is the way MEN handle things! We say stupid shit to each other, throw the cards on the table,
and have drink together. Cheers!
QUOTE (fingerpickinblue @ Jan 30 2010, 10:00 PM)
#944... My first favorite car!
I hate you.
I only took this Mod job 'cuz the Guy in the White hat promised me a Boxster.
QUOTE (sbmac @ Jan 30 2010, 11:02 PM)
I never implied it was ritual...
That's just the slang often used with preparation methods. The flaming thing is the fire ritual, and the normal way is the dripping or water ritual or whatever. Cuz absinthe drinkers are all about making shit more dramatic and atmospheric and whatnot.
QUOTE (sbmac @ Jan 31 2010, 12:04 AM)
See? This is the way MEN handle things! We say stupid shit to each other, throw the cards on the table,
and have drink together. Cheers!
and have drink together. Cheers!
Does that mean I have to take back the gratuitous and humorous "douche" thing?
Nah. We can be childish men as long as we play nice and don't become complete assholes when the girls post.
You first favorite car? Not your first car? Ok, I retract the "I hate you" thing.
You first favorite car? Not your first car? Ok, I retract the "I hate you" thing.
Can you feel the love in this room? I'm feelin' it.
QUOTE (Joe Legate @ Jan 31 2010, 12:12 AM)
Nah. We can be childish men as long as we play nice and don't become complete assholes when the girls post.
You first favorite car? Not your first car? Ok, I retract the "I hate you" thing.
You first favorite car? Not your first car? Ok, I retract the "I hate you" thing.
Oh c'mon. I've been feeling a little too well liked lately. That was just getting me back to the feeling I got from my last manager!
QUOTE (Gwydion Stone @ Jan 30 2010, 11:18 PM)
Can you feel the love in this room? I'm feelin' it.
You wanna fight about it?
Okay. I'll start:
You call that noise "music"???
I've given up trying to enlighten my misled friends.....
It's so true. People (especially those who have taken up absinthe for its cool-factor) don't like to have things taken away from them unless they're replaced by something better. So I let them know I'm initiating them into the real obscure absinthe knowledge, which is unassailable, and proceed to tell them why. They usually end up being grateful.
Also, the "conveniently dead grandparent told me so it must be true" gambit is an old one. I remember it being used in the 1970s by witches to somehow give credence to their traditions. Speaking of witch, I saw this ironically themed allegation just a few days ago in a private discussion:
Which is of course 100% bullshit.
Wormwood casks.
You call that noise "music"???
QUOTE (sbmac @ Jan 30 2010, 01:22 PM)
QUOTE (Gwydion Stone @ Jan 30 2010, 01:56 PM)
She's been misled. There is literally no current evidence that shows this was ever done before 1998.
I've given up trying to enlighten my misled friends.....
QUOTE (peridot @ Jan 30 2010, 02:55 PM)
... 3) Make sure they know that almost everyone gets duped at first and it's nothing to be ashamed of. That has actually made a huge difference for me; people who just a moment ago couldn't let go are suddenly much more receptive.
It's so true. People (especially those who have taken up absinthe for its cool-factor) don't like to have things taken away from them unless they're replaced by something better. So I let them know I'm initiating them into the real obscure absinthe knowledge, which is unassailable, and proceed to tell them why. They usually end up being grateful.
Also, the "conveniently dead grandparent told me so it must be true" gambit is an old one. I remember it being used in the 1970s by witches to somehow give credence to their traditions. Speaking of witch, I saw this ironically themed allegation just a few days ago in a private discussion:
QUOTE (Middle-Aged, Goddess-Sized, Wiccan Lady)
I'm not sure where you all are buying your Absinthe, but I sure have NOT paid $100 a bottle for my very nice, French, Swedish and Spanish made Absinthes.
I've sampled a large number of different brands, recipes, etc...including my own (French, moved from France to the USA when she was a young woman and spoke only french to me until I was 8 years old) Granmere's home made (yes she had a small home "still" and small wormwood casks (barrels.) She made a family recipe that produced some really TASTY Absinthe, and she prepared it a few different ways.
I have had people tell me that the burning prep was not "invented" until recently and that the "Green Fairy" thing is also a recent invention, but she sometimes did the burning prep and also called it the Green Faery. She was highly superstitous and big on faerys and would leave out milk and honey for the "house Faerys" favor.
Us older kids were allowed to have a few small sips of the Absinthe in tiny pony glasses, as a sort of sacrament for specific New Years and/or birthday toasts, we felt SO grown up!
When we talked about it as adults she old me that the Absinthe that she made was
Unfortunately, when she died my hard core Xtian aunt got rid of her still and would not let me even LOOK at the recipes...so I fear that they are lost forever.
I've sampled a large number of different brands, recipes, etc...including my own (French, moved from France to the USA when she was a young woman and spoke only french to me until I was 8 years old) Granmere's home made (yes she had a small home "still" and small wormwood casks (barrels.) She made a family recipe that produced some really TASTY Absinthe, and she prepared it a few different ways.
I have had people tell me that the burning prep was not "invented" until recently and that the "Green Fairy" thing is also a recent invention, but she sometimes did the burning prep and also called it the Green Faery. She was highly superstitous and big on faerys and would leave out milk and honey for the "house Faerys" favor.
Us older kids were allowed to have a few small sips of the Absinthe in tiny pony glasses, as a sort of sacrament for specific New Years and/or birthday toasts, we felt SO grown up!
When we talked about it as adults she old me that the Absinthe that she made was
Unfortunately, when she died my hard core Xtian aunt got rid of her still and would not let me even LOOK at the recipes...so I fear that they are lost forever.
Which is of course 100% bullshit.
Wormwood casks.
I particularly like the "wormwood casks" concept. Why don't more people make cool things from the wood of that noble tree?
All I can say is drinking my first Pernot Vieux Pontarlier while visiting and posting tonight has been interesting to say the least. I feel like we should all be drinking and singing together in the sub from "Das Boot" as the charges drop from above. The only flames coming from our exploding engines.....and the only drips coming from our fountains and leaky bulkheads. I regret my overly snappy retort earlier. I need
to get out more perhaps.
-Scott
to get out more perhaps.
-Scott
We all do that sooner or later. We try to make it happen with less frequency the longer we're here. There are a hell of a lot of nice folks hanging around.
It's hard to get a good 2X4 with all those worms boring holes in it. It smells fantastic however.
QUOTE (peridot @ Jan 30 2010, 10:35 PM)
Why don't more people make cool things from the wood of that noble tree?
It's hard to get a good 2X4 with all those worms boring holes in it. It smells fantastic however.
I also am beginning to notice (and I'm probably just slow in this regard) a tendency of people to conflate controversial things with other things that are just common knowledge, which conveniently makes the controversial thing look less so. Like in the above quote, saying that people think flaming is a modern thing (yep) and so is calling it the green fairy (what?). I've had some difficulty with this lately; people weave misconceptions so tightly that it sometimes becomes a real chore to untie the knot of ignorance.
QUOTE (Joe Legate @ Jan 30 2010, 11:41 PM)
We all do that sooner or later. We try to make it happen with less frequency the longer we're here.
Yeah, I mellowed out a lot when I started frequenting very heavily moderated sports forums. I got a warning for asking about a moderator banning someone over a misunderstanding. Because you're not supposed to question a mod publicly. Nothing that can be construed as sexist allowed (like saying someone throws like a girl, or giving a girly nickname to a baseball player... I actually agree with this rule). No language, period. Even saying "I'm putting you on ignore" is a personal attack and can get you banned.
Just to get my in-depth sporting news I have to play so nice it's painful.
Then at some metal band forums you can get banned just by disagreeing with an artistic or marketing decision by the band, even if you're nice about it.
This place seems like total freakin' anarchy by comparison.
QUOTE (peridot @ Jan 31 2010, 12:35 AM)
I particularly like the "wormwood casks" concept. Why don't more people make cool things from the wood of that noble tree?
Shows how much you know. I'm having a deck made from wormwood right now. It's gonna be friggin awesome next summer when I louche up a flaming absinthe frappe of an evening.
Sheesh...what a bunch of louchebags!
QUOTE (Marlow @ Jan 31 2010, 01:15 AM)
Shows how much you know. I'm having a deck made from wormwood right now. It's gonna be friggin awesome next summer when I louche up a flaming absinthe frappe of an evening.
Be careful...most towns have a thujone limit for the lumber used in home improvements. I believe it is 10 mg per board foot.
That's weak. Who do we petition to change that?
It's not an issue...if the inspectors come by, one whiff of the sawdust will have them tripping ballz so fast they'll forget what they came for.
QUOTE (pierreverte @ Jan 30 2010, 11:13 PM)
..
Fuck the messanger, give us PROOF, if not, fuck off (no offence intended)!
Fuck the messanger, give us PROOF, if not, fuck off (no offence intended)!
Thanks for adding in the "no offense intended" after the smoke cleared Peter. I was told by a couple guys that this is a very serious thing for you, and that you are a part of why absinthe is becoming popular again. I know first hand that when dealing with bullshit for many many years, one easily COULD have (and might have yesterday) meant offense in truth. If the "no offense intended" had been there when you first put up that post, I NEVER would have snapped back...(I'm clarifying here now so people reading your amended post won't think I'm a hair-trigger nut job).
I'm happy to meet someone with your knowledge and experience. I am considered an authority in the guitar restoration world, having many international clients, and written columns in several guitar magazines through the last 20 years. (That however doesn't mean I'm not corrected on things from time to time) I too have my issues; People (sometimes who SHOULD know better) frequently do and say things that damage fine instruments (often just to make a buck), and I've been pissed more than once at the rape of these precious instruments. I do understand your need to protect and nurture the culture.
Best, Scott
I'm sure you missed it, Scott but the "No offence" was there from the beginning.
Peter can come off as a little heavy-handed from time to time but I'm confident it is only because his passion for all things absinthe is intense.
I try to remember that written communication is missing the subtle nuance of vocal inflection. Unless a post is worded carefully, it's easy to be misunderstood. Certainly, I've popped-off many times when I shouldn't have and written things I later regretted. So I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. After a while, you learn to "read the voice."
Peter speaks strongly (and I usually laugh out loud at his bluntness).
The Guy in the White Hat personifies "glib."
Brian's personal experience resonates with almost every post he makes.
Dakini is the resident academic.
OMG_Bill cracks me up but when he gets pissed, you know something is really amiss.
Zman rarely ever wastes words, giving them the power and economy that a poet would choose.
And on and on...
Peter can come off as a little heavy-handed from time to time but I'm confident it is only because his passion for all things absinthe is intense.
I try to remember that written communication is missing the subtle nuance of vocal inflection. Unless a post is worded carefully, it's easy to be misunderstood. Certainly, I've popped-off many times when I shouldn't have and written things I later regretted. So I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. After a while, you learn to "read the voice."
Peter speaks strongly (and I usually laugh out loud at his bluntness).
The Guy in the White Hat personifies "glib."
Brian's personal experience resonates with almost every post he makes.
Dakini is the resident academic.
OMG_Bill cracks me up but when he gets pissed, you know something is really amiss.
Zman rarely ever wastes words, giving them the power and economy that a poet would choose.
And on and on...
QUOTE (Joe Legate @ Jan 31 2010, 03:25 PM)
I'm sure you missed it, Scott but the "No offence" was there from the beginning.
No, it wasn't, and I hoped that I could add the disclaimer quickly enough, but didn't, reflexes were impared.
My bad, note to self - try being less of a douche...
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.