Return Vieux Carre or keep bottle?, Bad storage in store? Options

[sbmac]

I bought my first bottle of Vieux Carre from Drink Up NY. It is a new bottle, made in 2009.
It arrived in a state of fuille morte, which from what I understand is ok in a naturally aged absinthe,
but something this new must have been exposed to light/heat to have no traces of green whatsoever.

I have a call in to Philadelphia dist to ask their opinion on this...will it affect flavor, etc...it most certainly affected the louche, which was a mucous-like brownish green. I can't imagine it NOT affecting the flavor of something as herbal as Vieux Carre.

Am in out of bounds asking for a new bottle shipping free in exchange? This absinthe has real promise,
and I'd like to try it the way it's meant to be!

[Brian Robinson]

Poke around a little and you'll find that the VC is normally very dark and more brownish than green at this point. Other absinthes, such as La Cocquette and Belle Amie were brown from the start, and were VERY good absinthes.

I wouldn't automatically assume that fuille morte will be a negative factor in the flavor profile. It's not abnormal for heavier colored absinthes such as VC to turn brown very quickly. While it might not look as pretty, I don't think it will ruin the flavor.

RE: storage at DUNY, I don't think that there's much possibility of incorrect storage, since the inside of the store receives very little sunlight. The only windows are in the front of the store, which are closed off from the shelves by a floor to ceiling wall that has a bunch of other products on it.

[sbmac]

Thanks Brian...I did see in the reviews that several people described a nice green color, and a few brown/amber as well. I don't know why new bottles would be so different if it weren't a storage issue if the recipe is consistent. That's why I assumed it was a storage issue. I'd like the maker's take on this too...

[Aggelos]

La Cocquette and Belle Amie were brown from the start, and were VERY good absinthes.

Slight correction, Belle Amie is gold amber when it ages, and is never brown.

That being said :


Dark, dark, and excellent

and I'll conclude with :

THAT is a real killer

(all images courtesy of heureverte.com )

So no, I wouldn't worry if I were you

[Brian Robinson]

I'd like the maker's take on this too...

I'll be seeing him tomorrow, so I'll find out.

[Ron]

sbmac, the dead leaf color of VC is pretty normal. There are tons of little conversations about it here and there throughout the forum, but the brand specific thread is the best place to read up a little bit about it. Here's a link to some recent discussion on it, where AiO made a visit to the distillery. He also posted some super pictures. I like the Vieux Carre, but I'm not a fan of the color. That's why I was surprised and enthusiastic about AiO's pictures, because it's proof that Rob is really working hard on tweaking his product based on feedback!

[kaseijin]

There are a number of perfectly innocuous things that can account for an early feuille mort and should not adversely affect the taste too much, if at all.

If you enjoy the absinthe otherwise, I wouldn't sweat the color. Color, to me, is largely incidental anyway (the purpose of the second maceration, in my mind being to add flavor first and foremost) and at least you can readily tell that it is natural.

In my limited interaction with Rob, he has been a complete gentleman - so if you have approached him with questions about your bottle, I reckon he would be quite amicable in answering them. I returned my bottle at his request, but my reservations regarding that bottle never had anything to do with the color. I would urge you to not let any discussion from another thread prematurely affect your verdict on any brand -- make up your own mind and then compare notes afterward. Some people like different labels more or less than other people do; it's one of the beautiful things about having the available variety that we currently enjoy!

This post has been edited by kaseijin: Feb 2 2010, 08:36 AM

[Ron]

The picture that Aggelos linked of the L'Enjôleuse is about right, but only after some age I would guess. I think all of my absinthes from the Devoilles distillery are still more green than brown, but pretty close to that. That includes La Coquette and Soixante Cinq. A heavy amount of coloring definitely affects an absinthe's predisposition to turn dead leaf more quickly.

I would venture to say that some people prefer a change in color as a sign of natural coloring, versus a beautiful green that never seems to change. Search the discussions on Duplais Verte.

[sbmac]

sbmac, the dead leaf color of VC is pretty normal. There are tons of little conversations about it here and there throughout the forum, but the brand specific thread is the best place to read up a little bit about it. Here's a link to some recent discussion on it, where AiO made a visit to the distillery.

Thanks Ron. Good thread there.

[pierreverte]

This all begs to question once again the value of color in judging an absinthe, where once again, a blanche would almost always have an advantage using the same point values.

When looking at past judging score sheets, it is obvious that many verte absinthes were beat by blanches ONLY because of the extra points won by NOT having any color. Pretty ironic for the 'Fée Verte'?

A brownish absinthe is acceptable if you like the maker/creator/distiller (and easily considered as a fault if you don't), and blind-tasted almost always would get bad marks.
A tradionally colored absinthe can and usually does look amazingly emerald green when freshly made, but can easily look like crap after just a few weeks in the bottle.

After almost a decade, nothing has really moved forward on this point, because the reasons for it have to be learned and re-taught constantly...

This post has been edited by pierreverte: Feb 2 2010, 09:27 AM

[Brian Robinson]

it is obvious that many verte absinthes were beat by blanches ONLY because of the extra points won by NOT having any color.

A man of my own heart.

While it sure is pretty to have a wonderful green color, many people still overlook the primary reason for the coloration, which Kasejin already mentioned: added flavor.

[Ron]

A man of my own heart.

Ditto.

And I've said it before, but I like my vertes to be...well...verte! I still think that many of the ones which have color issues actually still taste good. My only caveat would be St. George. With all due respect to the work that goes into making it, I'm just not a fan of the color or the flavor.

[sbmac]

A brownish absinthe is acceptable if you like the maker/creator/distiller (and easily considered as a fault if you don't), and blind-tasted almost always would get bad marks.
A tradionally colored absinthe can and usually does look amazingly emerald green when freshly made, but can easily look like crap after just a few weeks in the bottle.

I'd rather drink one that has slightly changed than some with extra un-needed stabilizers or worst, fake colors. My question was simply would a new bottle TASTE wrong if it turned early due to heat or light. The owner of DUNY told me today they are stored well and all were this same color. They are from the last shipment/batch in the bottle with the darker ink. Perhaps the tweaks I read about in their new stuff will make this all go away. I DID enjoy the absinthe, but was wondering if it was at its best or not. If it was stored well, it is most likely not an issue. My bottle of Pernot Vieux Pontarlier BTW was a sparkling peridot.
Lovely and tasty.

[Ron]

I prefer the VP to the VC. In color, aroma and taste. But that's a recipe and process thing.

As far as color change affecting taste, I believe the answer is that it doesn't. It's just chlorophyll breakdown. A heavily colored verte, however, will have some taste issues associate with the extra herbs used. But those are taken into account with the recipe, and again, won't change with color shift.

[Aggelos]

The picture that Aggelos linked of the L'Enjôleuse is about right, but only after some age I would guess.

Aaaaaaaand... Nope. Original color
That being said, the color of L'Enjoleuse and La Désirée, this dark brown, is due to an aging of several months (years ?) before it was even brought to the market.

Going back on the topic, the question of the color of an absinthe is, in my humble opinion, very subjective, and has absolutely no impact on the taste, in pure theory that is.

It takes some time to learn that, though, since the brain is wired to associate colour and taste (for example, green coloured strawberry syrup will taste minty)

Still, the colour must look natural, and it may fade in time, but it's not a necessity.

To pour some oil on the fire, Matter's absinthes have a vibrant green colour which won't disappear in time. While it's a natural green, one may wonder how they obtain it, and why it is so stable.

But in the world of the mysteries of absinthe, the Matter colorator seems to be a darn well kept secret

[Ron]

Agreed. And I like the color of Matter's Duplais Verte.

[buddhasynth]

 It takes some time to learn that, though, since the brain is wired to associate colour and taste  

I've never heard that actually said before, but I do figure out what to make for dinner based on how it looks on the plate! 





That said, I got some La Coquette awhile back and it was straight-up feuille mort when I got it. The first bottle I got a year and a half ago was a good bit greener, but it tastes just as delicious. Heck, the DP brands were damn near neon green when I first saw them, although the MoL went feuille mort in about 4 days because I was caught between a fuzzy brain and a busy work schedule. By the time I realized I should move the stuff it was too late, but it still tasted great. My present DP stash wasn't quite as bright when I got it, after several months in a safe place they are feuilling right along and I feel no apprehension. Although it will be a while indeed before I forget that über-bright colour.*le sigh*

[oglala56]

 It takes some time to learn that, though, since the brain is wired to associate colour and taste  

I've never heard that actually said before, but I do figure out what to make for dinner based on how it looks on the plate! 





That said, I got some La Coquette awhile back and it was straight-up feuille mort when I got it. The first bottle I got a year and a half ago was a good bit greener, but it tastes just as delicious. Heck, the DP brands were damn near neon green when I first saw them, although the MoL went feuille mort in about 4 days because I was caught between a fuzzy brain and a busy work schedule. By the time I realized I should move the stuff it was too late, but it still tasted great. My present DP stash wasn't quite as bright when I got it, after several months in a safe place they are feuilling right along and I feel no apprehension. Although it will be a while indeed before I forget that über-bright colour.*le sigh*

I keep my DP in a dark cabinet but it never lasts long enough to turn..

[Absomphe]

Ain't it the truth.

[precenphix]

and I'll conclude with :

THAT is a real killer

That last image is drool-worthy!

[AiO]

I would urge you to not let any discussion from another thread prematurely affect your verdict on any brand -- make up your own mind and then compare notes afterward. Some people like different labels more or less than other people do; it's one of the beautiful things about having the available variety that we currently enjoy!

Well said.

[Grim]

I prefer the VP to the VC. In color, aroma and taste. But that's a recipe and process thing.

As far as color change affecting taste, I believe the answer is that it doesn't. It's just chlorophyll breakdown. A heavily colored verte, however, will have some taste issues associate with the extra herbs used. But those are taken into account with the recipe, and again, won't change with color shift.

I don't know what chlorophyll tastes or smells like... but the turning of absinthe, or rather, the appearance of senescence in an absinthe that we associate with the feuille morte is usually conditioned on a number of things that are all related in a complex way to what you'll eventually taste and perceive in the glass. Where the color is concerned, the final character - especially the bouquet - is dependent and augmented according to, among many things, the strength the absinthe is delivered/bottled at; perhaps, even, the means of storage and the characteristics of the storage vessel... if not inert; before this, the degree chosen for vieillissement/aging; before that, the proportion and preparation of herbs used in the coloring; leading into that, the method assumed and the application of heat in coloring...

So when light and oxidative effects play themselves out, conditions will have to be right for an «absinthe riche» (60-72°) to begin to break down - and I'd be lying if I said I know all the reasons why - but, again, we are all aware they depend greatly on light and oxygen. And just as conditions allow for the instability of chlorophyll to be apparent, the same conditions allow for positive or negative changes to occur that you'll taste, detect and appreciate or reject. So with respect to color, I'm personally compelled to believe there's this associativity that shouldn't be ignored.

Something I'm curious about, I wonder if producers who customarily bottle at 60° now, which would seem in a most practical sense to be almost obligatory (but which I've bitched about numerous times in the past... Sorry, PV), will tend towards highers strengths as they establish themselves, and whether, in kind, we'll see a difference, within brand, in the color put before the customer.

[Ron]

I don't know what chlorophyll tastes or smells like

I put it in my coffee every morning.

And just as conditions allow for the instability of chlorophyll to be apparent, the same conditions allow for positive or negative changes to occur that you'll taste

It's a conjecture that makes sense on a theoretical level. On a practical level, I wouldn't know. Your research into the processes puts you in a position to talk about these things with some authority though, so I'm willing to accept your assertion.

I wonder if producers who customarily bottle at 60° now...will tend towards highers strengths as they establish themselves, and whether we'll see a difference in the color.

On the belief that the higher bottle proof will help in color stabilization? I would think so.

[Absomphe]

and I'll conclude with :

THAT is a real killer

That last image is drool-worthy!

The Kahlua Absinthe™.

[Aggelos]

The Kahlua Absinthe™.

[Absomphe]

Here's mud in your eye 'stache, Dude!

[Brian Robinson]

I like Grimmy hanging around.

[OMG_Bill]

Same here.

I miss a few others though.

[scuto]

He treats objects as women, man!

Edit: Not Grim, Jackie Treehorn as spoken by The Dude.

This post has been edited by scuto: Feb 3 2010, 10:47 AM

[Chris]

Sounds like Grim to me...